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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 7537060" data-attributes="member: 6750235">For a fire sorc I don't take that many fire spells.  Fireball, wall of fire, maybe 1 higher level spell.  I don't feel the neex for thematic spells at every level.  I need a low, medium, and high attack spell, a defensive spell or two, and whatever else I feel like taking for utility..Ice is easy.  Frostbite and ice knife, sleet storm and ice storm, investiture of ice.  That covers the theme well enough for me.  Lightning would be lightning and thunder on a storm sorc.  Acid I might add poison as a secondary and vice versa; poison is not good against many enemies.I also don't care if there is a ranged lightning cantrip or not.  I would use the metamagic.  It makes any touch spell better.  I've also built with armor.  Human variant is wearing medium armor and shield by 4th level.  Bit expensive in 2 ASI's but useful with touch spells and short range.Shocking grasp isn't the only lightning below 3rd level.  Witchbolt is a poor spell but twinned in a higher level slot still performs and can be done relatively early.  I admit I don't take it but there is that niche argument.  Chromatic orb is whatever type the caster wants and carries the advantage of changing if the situation calls for it.My last lightning sorc was was a storm sorc in med armor.  The campaign made it to 14th level.  My spells were:  shocking grasp, light, prestdigitation, mage hand, minor illusion, gust; thunderwave, shield, chromatic orb; alter self, enhance ability; lightning bolt, clairvoyance; storm sphere, dimension door; hold monster, creation; chain lightning; plane shift.  Twin, careful, heighten.  He would thunderwave and knock people back, trigger bonus damage, and use the bonus fly to move for a rinse and repeat by staying close to sweep opponents around if I wanted.The point is that a person choose to build a character around being close instead of complaining about being close.That's not what I was arguing.  I was pointing out that using spell slots outside of combat takes away the ability to use those same slots in combat.  A wizard does not have more slots for having more spells prepped than the sorc knows so at the levels discussed earlier.  That doesn't mean either cannot take out of combat spells.  What it means is that the extra out of combat spells prepped become restricted by spell slots anyway.Alter self is quite useful outside of combat.  Enhance ability is easier to swap out because it can be overshadowed by the help action.  I keep it for the secondary physical benefits and as a general utility benefit for when the help action isn't possible.  It's also twinnable.Ritual casting is convenient.  It's not crucial.  It's also not likely a wizard is casting augury.  That comes from having a cleric in the typical party.  There are 4 ritual casters by default and 3 of them are likely to have 1 of filling a traditional "healer/support" role.  Most parties have rituals regardless of the wizard.  Any party can add rituals if they think they matter regardless of having a wizard.Personally, I haven't felt like I missed them when playing classes without them.If it were that important, optimzers would make arguments for it.  Whether INT is useless or not can depend on how prominent the checks are.  INT checks are made for information and identifying objects, and finding objects is pretty typical of adventuring.  Subclasses of other classes use it. I would fit in the INT if I wanted rituals.  Or look for bard rituals -- it's a decent list, as you say.Subtle spell.  Draconic presence.  Heighten spell.  Draconic presence is expensive but strong, even if it's later in the game..  Subtle spell automatically hides having cast the spell.  Disadvantage on saves is huge with spells like that.  I'm not sure where your struggle is in such a sorcerer, tbh.  They have plenty to work with here.There is no requirement to make a blaster sorcerer.  They can be good at it but the ability to twin concentration spells or give disadvantage on save-or-suck spells is powerful outside of blasting.  You can make your sorcerer with a single damage cantrip to match draconic color and you would have the equivalent of other classes adding caster mod to cantrip damage.  Then you have bonus hit points over wizards, the armor bonus without having to use mage armor, and later a concentration-free flight ability.There are several ways to build a sorcerer.  You only trap yourself into a blaster after falling into your own preconceptions.  Hopefully I gave you some food for thought.</blockquote>

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