Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Sorry - I think the point was missed...
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="greywulf" data-source="post: 2414493" data-attributes="member: 4285"><p>Fascinating stuff, this. I'm with Ryan on this one, 100%. Credit where it's due, he does know what he's talking about.</p><p></p><p>A lot of "Rules-light" games are a myth; they don't simplify at all. FUDGE is a good case in point. The rules are simple, straightforward, and very streamlined. It also demands a LOT of work from the GM before a game can even be run. I've been there, done that. "Rules-heavy" games (and I don't think d20/D&D falls into that cetegory at all) also tend to require a lot of work from he GM, not least in finding the particular rules-reference, lookup tables, or refactoring the rules for easy reference during games. I'm thinking Rolemaster heavy here.</p><p></p><p>Both extremes are valid and worthwhile though, both have their place in role-playing canon and both CAN be fun.</p><p></p><p>That's because the rules themselves are just tools, nothing more. They're no more fun than a hammer or a chainsaw. Both of those tools aren't fun in themselves - it's what you do with them that makes them fun - and I can think of a lot of fun things to do with a chainsaw <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>So, "fun" isn't a factor of how heavy or light the rules are, provided the rules aren't poorly constructed in the first place. I don't know if anyone else remembers an old superhero game called "Golden Heroes". The character generation was great in that game, but the combat system was unplayably bad to the point that the game system itself DID interfere with the fun factor. To this day, I still don't understand the Parry rules.</p><p></p><p>To my mind, d20/D&D is "rules-medium", and has the balance about right; it's full credit to the deisgners for getting it spot on. That also means that there's plenty of room for slide. Want to make it lighter (lose AoE, limit the feats list, drop PrCs), that's cool. Want heavier (more PrCs, feats from everywhere, more crunch to combat), then that's cool too.</p><p></p><p>People ARE confusing "rules-light" with "rules-transparent" though. The D&D rules are an intrinsic part of the role-playing experience. It's hard to play a game without breaking out character and saying "roll d20", or "make a Reflex save" or whatever. The rules are pervasive, and some see that as a Bad Thing. Personally, I don't mind it. I don't think that "rules-transparent" storytelling systems add anything at all to the fun factor either. I've never liked the storytelling games because they just end up being ego trips for the more vocal player with no rules to restrain, control or guide them.</p><p></p><p>D&D is fun. Rolemaster is fun, FUDGE is fun - with the right GM, the right players and the right attitude. Even Golden Heroes was fun provided no one wanted to hit anything <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></p><p></p><p>Sorry for the long post. Great thread!</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="greywulf, post: 2414493, member: 4285"] Fascinating stuff, this. I'm with Ryan on this one, 100%. Credit where it's due, he does know what he's talking about. A lot of "Rules-light" games are a myth; they don't simplify at all. FUDGE is a good case in point. The rules are simple, straightforward, and very streamlined. It also demands a LOT of work from the GM before a game can even be run. I've been there, done that. "Rules-heavy" games (and I don't think d20/D&D falls into that cetegory at all) also tend to require a lot of work from he GM, not least in finding the particular rules-reference, lookup tables, or refactoring the rules for easy reference during games. I'm thinking Rolemaster heavy here. Both extremes are valid and worthwhile though, both have their place in role-playing canon and both CAN be fun. That's because the rules themselves are just tools, nothing more. They're no more fun than a hammer or a chainsaw. Both of those tools aren't fun in themselves - it's what you do with them that makes them fun - and I can think of a lot of fun things to do with a chainsaw :) So, "fun" isn't a factor of how heavy or light the rules are, provided the rules aren't poorly constructed in the first place. I don't know if anyone else remembers an old superhero game called "Golden Heroes". The character generation was great in that game, but the combat system was unplayably bad to the point that the game system itself DID interfere with the fun factor. To this day, I still don't understand the Parry rules. To my mind, d20/D&D is "rules-medium", and has the balance about right; it's full credit to the deisgners for getting it spot on. That also means that there's plenty of room for slide. Want to make it lighter (lose AoE, limit the feats list, drop PrCs), that's cool. Want heavier (more PrCs, feats from everywhere, more crunch to combat), then that's cool too. People ARE confusing "rules-light" with "rules-transparent" though. The D&D rules are an intrinsic part of the role-playing experience. It's hard to play a game without breaking out character and saying "roll d20", or "make a Reflex save" or whatever. The rules are pervasive, and some see that as a Bad Thing. Personally, I don't mind it. I don't think that "rules-transparent" storytelling systems add anything at all to the fun factor either. I've never liked the storytelling games because they just end up being ego trips for the more vocal player with no rules to restrain, control or guide them. D&D is fun. Rolemaster is fun, FUDGE is fun - with the right GM, the right players and the right attitude. Even Golden Heroes was fun provided no one wanted to hit anything :) Sorry for the long post. Great thread! [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*TTRPGs General
Sorry - I think the point was missed...
Top