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Message: <blockquote data-quote="JohnSnow" data-source="post: 2427612" data-attributes="member: 32164">The first is precisely what I'm saying. Everyone has different tradeoffs. An acknowledgement that those tradeoffs exist is an important basis for discussion (and one we've reached after god knows how many pages of threads like this...) On the topic of "other kinds of play," I think Moogle's comment applies.A game has defined rules and consequences that are the results of player choice. Given that the nature of RPGs is (in theory) an "open decision tree," the only way to preserve the "game" part is if, as in chess, the "rules of the world" are consistent and well understood. Yes, chess is an abstraction, but many people will tell you that chess is a strategy exercise, not a game. If the rules are variable and inconsistent, nothing of the "game" is left and it's just storytelling. That may be entertaining, but it's not, in my opinion, a game. What I'm saying is that the "story" overlies the "rules" elements. If you want to parse out the term "Roleplaying Game," I'd argue that the story is the "roleplaying" part and the rules are the "game" part.I prefer to lay the story "on top of" the game. For me to truly enjoy the game, it has to be reasonably consistent. That's very important to me. I like feeling like my character is operating within a "consistent, believable world" because that's the point at which it feels "real" and my enjoyment is highest.First - C&C defines itself as 'rules light.' That's the Trolls' definition, not mine.Second, C&C is hardly 'rules light' relative to AD&D. It adds the SIEGE system and 'Primes.' It keeps the differing abilities for every class. It keeps the same magic system. It is, in essence, AD&D with THAC0 changed to BAB and a skill resolution system added. I admit it dumps some of the AD&D rules that hardly anyone ever used (like weapon speed) but it's basically AD&D. I will concede that it's 'rules light' relative to 3e, but I don't think the things it sacrifices (skills, feats, class abilities, and attacks of opportunity) bring as much complexity to the table as the things it leaves untouched (spells and magic items).The second thing I'm trying to say is that there are aspects of 3e that I'd like to see addressed differently. I WANT a "rules-easier" version of D&D. My headache is not with Attacks of Opportunity or Feats however, but with the kludgy magic system. My second headache is with the pseudo-point-buy-powers of the wealth system (and magic items).I can't imagine liking its magic system much less than 3e D&D's magic system. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> But holding out hope for anything similar to HERO doesn't exactly encourage me as I disliked having to "build" powers. I understand the theory behind "broad" abilities, but the practice struck me as clumsy. That said, I've not seen Fantasy HERO, just the basic rules as presented in the combined HERO System/Champions book (not sure which edition). So if Fantasy HERO did some of that building for me, then that's different.I'd love a system where there were certain BASIC abilities. Energy Bolt. Energy Burst. Fly. Teleport. Conjure. Transform/Transmute. Shield. Sense. A few others. And spells are combinations of those effects with certain "other" aspects. Fire and "energy bolt" gives you "fireballs" like the wizard in Gauntlet. Fire and "energy burst" gives you "fireball" like in D&D.The closest d20 system to that which I've heard of is in Black Company. However, I'd love to see a few more takes on it. And I suspect I will soon.</blockquote>

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