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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 8132920" data-attributes="member: 6801228">So, thinking about this from a different angle. To speed up gameplay, people tend to roll sets of dice, even when they are not necessary. Or, I have actually seen this repeatedly, a player will tell the DM "I cast shield as my reaction if any of those attacks hit". So, what happens if the Rogue Player decides, for speed purposes, to always roll their knack die at the same time they roll the d20? (Note: I'm not saying this is RAW, this is for illustrative purposes, I am not declaring this RAW) A) The result of the d20 alone is enough to succeedB) The result of the d20 plus the Knack die still failsC) The Result of the d20 fails but adding the Knack die it succeedsNow, under B there is no question. The die is not expended. Under C? Still no question, the die is expended because it turned a failure into a success. So A is a question? I don't think so. Under A the knack die was not a "legal roll", and since they could not roll it, they could not use the ability. They rolled the physical die for convenience, in case they wanted to activate the ability, to to actually activate it. So the die is not expended.So, with that framing, under the idea that in that situation I would just dismiss the die as being rolled for speed of play and not for actually utilizing the ability, then I am perfectly fine letting the roll the die to try and succeed at an impossible task. Because, the issue of metagaming is knowing whether or not they failed where the failure state is them not knowing if they failed. I can let them spend the die either way, and the end result is the same. It is a bit of theater. Like a DM rolling a handful of d20s for no real reason while the players are arguing, but the players think something is going on, and it puts them on a track to speed things up. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Now. I think there is actually a more interesting question with this Knack die that I'm not sure how to rule on. When we do stealth, we often have the player roll first, then roll to see if any guards notice them, in essentially a multiple contested check (this isn't always, but it does happen). Now... do you let the player roll their knack before the perceptions if they rolled poorly? If they rolled well enough to beat some of the enemies with the knack die, but not all of them do they expend the die? They failed overall, so my gut says no.Or, here is an even trickier question. Xanathar's allows you to use thieves tools to make a trap, the trap's DC is equal to your roll. Do you allow the knack die to be added to it? You have no idea if your result "succeeded or failed" because it is a future opposed check, it could be a week from now that someone stumbles upon it. I think I would allow them to spend it, and expend the die, because they are setting a higher DC, but it is a tricky little scenario per RAW.</blockquote>

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