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Soulknife Knack problems (Is it incredibly powerful?)
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<blockquote data-quote="jgsugden" data-source="post: 8185663" data-attributes="member: 2629"><p>You're rolling stealth too early. The PHB says that a player rolls stealth when they start to hide - but it also says the that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. If there is danger of the PC being observed because there are no observers, then there is no real opportunity to hide. Hidden is not a status for the PC - is a relationship the PC has with observers. It takes 2 to tango.</p><p></p><p>When someone tells me they are hiding, I do one of three things:</p><p></p><p>1.) Apply their 'passive hide' as their result. I do this when there are no real stakes, and rolling a die is a waste of time. </p><p>2.) If I determine there are real stakes, and someone is present at that moment to observe, and that observer wants to know where the PC is, I have them roll stealth at that moment opposed by the observer's perception / senses.</p><p>3.) Say ok, and tell them to wait to roll stealth. It'll be rolled at the first moment there is possible detection by a threat.</p><p></p><p>Ah, but you say, their fellow PCs are trying to observe them! Surely you have to roll to determine if their fellow PCs can spot them when they hide! See option 1. </p><p></p><p>Rolling stealth before it is tested is a metagame problem. If a player knows they rolled poorly, they'll have an incentive to take less risks. If they roll a 20, they'll treat it like they are impervious. </p><p></p><p>Ah, but you say, they roll a stealth when Monster 1 is the only observer and succeed... but then a second observer comes in and rolls perception against the stealth already rolled! In this instance, I'd make a judgment call. Under RAW - no knack. There is no roll for the PC at this point. However, I would likely either: 1.) Let them roll the knack die and subtract it from the enemy perceptions for purpose of observing them, or 2.) (if there is a change in circumstance) have them reroll stealth.</p><p></p><p>OK then, what if the observer is also hidden from the PC and the PC does not know the observer is there? I tell the player to roll stealth. They tell me a result. They ask who was observing them. I tell them they do not see anyone, and their PC does not know they were being observed. </p><p></p><p>They ask if they hid successfully. I tell they they do not know, but they can attempt to use a knack die if they like. If they are hidden, it will not be lost. If they are not hidden from the observer, it will be applied and change the situation.</p><p></p><p>If they tell me they want to use a knack die, I tell them to roll. Then, if they failed to hide from the observer based upon their stealth roll (without knack), I apply the die and subtract one of their psi dice. If they already succeeded, I do not subtract a die. If they ask me how many dice they have, I tell them the range they might have based upon how many they have in total, and how many they know they've used, and how many they might have used up. </p><p></p><ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">DMs should not just tell a player if the succeed or fail on a skill check if the results are not obvious. The DM needs to let the PLAYER know that a roll has been performed, but that does not mean their character knows.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">What is a success or failure is up to the DM.</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">If a Soulknife isn't sure whether they succeeded or failed, they can try to use the knack die. If they already succeeded, the use is an illegal use of the ability and the die is not lost.</li> </ul></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="jgsugden, post: 8185663, member: 2629"] You're rolling stealth too early. The PHB says that a player rolls stealth when they start to hide - but it also says the that the DM decides when circumstances are appropriate for hiding. If there is danger of the PC being observed because there are no observers, then there is no real opportunity to hide. Hidden is not a status for the PC - is a relationship the PC has with observers. It takes 2 to tango. When someone tells me they are hiding, I do one of three things: 1.) Apply their 'passive hide' as their result. I do this when there are no real stakes, and rolling a die is a waste of time. 2.) If I determine there are real stakes, and someone is present at that moment to observe, and that observer wants to know where the PC is, I have them roll stealth at that moment opposed by the observer's perception / senses. 3.) Say ok, and tell them to wait to roll stealth. It'll be rolled at the first moment there is possible detection by a threat. Ah, but you say, their fellow PCs are trying to observe them! Surely you have to roll to determine if their fellow PCs can spot them when they hide! See option 1. Rolling stealth before it is tested is a metagame problem. If a player knows they rolled poorly, they'll have an incentive to take less risks. If they roll a 20, they'll treat it like they are impervious. Ah, but you say, they roll a stealth when Monster 1 is the only observer and succeed... but then a second observer comes in and rolls perception against the stealth already rolled! In this instance, I'd make a judgment call. Under RAW - no knack. There is no roll for the PC at this point. However, I would likely either: 1.) Let them roll the knack die and subtract it from the enemy perceptions for purpose of observing them, or 2.) (if there is a change in circumstance) have them reroll stealth. OK then, what if the observer is also hidden from the PC and the PC does not know the observer is there? I tell the player to roll stealth. They tell me a result. They ask who was observing them. I tell them they do not see anyone, and their PC does not know they were being observed. They ask if they hid successfully. I tell they they do not know, but they can attempt to use a knack die if they like. If they are hidden, it will not be lost. If they are not hidden from the observer, it will be applied and change the situation. If they tell me they want to use a knack die, I tell them to roll. Then, if they failed to hide from the observer based upon their stealth roll (without knack), I apply the die and subtract one of their psi dice. If they already succeeded, I do not subtract a die. If they ask me how many dice they have, I tell them the range they might have based upon how many they have in total, and how many they know they've used, and how many they might have used up. [LIST] [*]DMs should not just tell a player if the succeed or fail on a skill check if the results are not obvious. The DM needs to let the PLAYER know that a roll has been performed, but that does not mean their character knows. [*]What is a success or failure is up to the DM. [*]If a Soulknife isn't sure whether they succeeded or failed, they can try to use the knack die. If they already succeeded, the use is an illegal use of the ability and the die is not lost. [/LIST] [/QUOTE]
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