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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 6300808" data-attributes="member: 4937">I disagree.  You are only quoting one of my several points, and in particular you are ignoring my 3rd point.  The rogue is already a versatile and broad class capable of being useful in many situations.  Granted you can be in a situation where all the foes are immune to sneak attack AND there are no traps, but IMO this is fairly rare even in a story based game.  Secondly, 'story has taken a much bigger role' is a very subjective statement that implies judgment of how the game was 'usually played' in the past - something I consider highly fraught with difficulties as there was certainly no 'standard' way to play AD&D 1e or 2e or 3e for that matter either.  You might could argue that in Pathfinder the 'adventure path' has become the standard way to play, but I'm not sure you'd convince me that AP's are 'story first' and leave no room for traps (though some, like 'Age of Worms' leave little room for rogues).   In any event, there is no reason to assume that finding traps was ever always useful and not situational.  But improvements in the rogues skills and abilities in other situations already makes up for that to a large degree.I know what you are intending to do, and as I noted in point #2 I do sympathize.  But to put it in as pithy of a way as possible, what I'm seeing here is examples of more proposed solutions by way of power creep, a problem the 3.X rules set has been beset with ever since 3.5 came out.  Every time someone sees a problem, they try to solve it through expanding abilities - greater power, greater flexibility, greater breadth.  At some point I think that pattern creates more problems than it solves.Wait... what????So if you play a cleric do you also need on average 1 undead per session?Do you also need on average 1 evil foe per session if you have paladins?Do you need to guarantee 1 encounter that can be solved by diplomacy per session if there is a bard in the party?If traps come up, you are an asset - its that simple.  When traps don't come up, you use your mobility skills, information collecting skills, social skills, use magic device, sneak attacks, and so forth to be an asset to the party.   You might as well complain about the fact that you invested ranks in the climb skill but so far you haven't averaged 1 encounter per session where climb offers a significant advantage. Now if none of the rogues skills are useful ever, then this points to failed encounter design but not merely because the rogue isn't being accommodated, but because the encounters are likely to be redundant and unimaginative period - endless 20'x30' rooms with no terrain containing hostile undead monsters that fight to the death aren't merely bad because the rogue doesn't get spotlight.</blockquote>

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