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Message: <blockquote data-quote="billd91" data-source="post: 2728928" data-attributes="member: 3400">Hear! Hear! I agree completely. Someone who fails to equal or beat the hide check cannot visually detect the hiding character. He's proven that with his spot check. Hence, the hidden character is, to the person who failed the spot check, invisible.May I also point out that an invisible character is not visibly undetectable if the observer is using see invisibility. So, the question about being visually undetectable depends on context and not on the definition of the invisibility spell. A hidden character is visually undetectable if the observer fails a spot roll. An character using an invisibility power is visually undetectable if the observer doesn't have see invisibility or some other power that allows them to see invisible characters.By the way, that -20 penalty for sniping should, as I read the rules, apply AFTER that first attack is made so that the character remains hidden. If the sniper succeeds with the hide check (assuming he's really good at it, has impressive circumstance modifiers, or his targets are really unperceptive), he continues to be invisible to the target.</blockquote>