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<blockquote data-quote="MwaO" data-source="post: 7020121" data-attributes="member: 12749">I don't think it really gets all that complex. If you don't live in certain high-density gamer parts of the world, you have the following people to deal with:The guy who wants his PC to be as simple as possible - do the same attack every single round no matter what. And have the class name Fighter probably.The guy who wants his PC to appear as complex as possible, but use some subset of it. Also wants to destroy non-combat scenarios by casting spells. Most of which is accomplished by build, not by actual smart tactical play. i.e. the player wants to appear smart to other players simply by the complexity and usefulness of his build. Not because the player is actually smart.-----If you live in a low-density gamer part of the world, that's a problem in initial 4e. The simple guy is kind of a Ranger, but even then, not *that* simple. The complex guy is actually relatively complex, but not in a fire and forget way, but rather you have to carefully think about your choices - in a way that non-controllers don't have to think about. And for traditional Wizard players, they don't look smart.Toss in that initial 4e adventures were awful and a competing source of good adventures showed up(Pathfinder), that was really all it needed to take. If you notice, 5e's focus is almost entirely on good adventure content, not additional crunch. You live in a low-density area, you end up playing Pathfinder because otherwise you have two sullen players in your group.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="MwaO, post: 7020121, member: 12749"] I don't think it really gets all that complex. If you don't live in certain high-density gamer parts of the world, you have the following people to deal with: The guy who wants his PC to be as simple as possible - do the same attack every single round no matter what. And have the class name Fighter probably. The guy who wants his PC to appear as complex as possible, but use some subset of it. Also wants to destroy non-combat scenarios by casting spells. Most of which is accomplished by build, not by actual smart tactical play. i.e. the player wants to appear smart to other players simply by the complexity and usefulness of his build. Not because the player is actually smart. ----- If you live in a low-density gamer part of the world, that's a problem in initial 4e. The simple guy is kind of a Ranger, but even then, not *that* simple. The complex guy is actually relatively complex, but not in a fire and forget way, but rather you have to carefully think about your choices - in a way that non-controllers don't have to think about. And for traditional Wizard players, they don't look smart. Toss in that initial 4e adventures were awful and a competing source of good adventures showed up(Pathfinder), that was really all it needed to take. If you notice, 5e's focus is almost entirely on good adventure content, not additional crunch. You live in a low-density area, you end up playing Pathfinder because otherwise you have two sullen players in your group. [/QUOTE]

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