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Message: <blockquote data-quote="AbdulAlhazred" data-source="post: 7034715" data-attributes="member: 82106">Well, this isn't a 5e analysis thread, but I love it when a designer basically just punts and tells you to make <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> up because apparently they can't design a subsystem that works (even though they actually already HAVE one if they'd just use it). Well, beyond that they don't actually explain how they work at all, and what exactly they're good for. Beyond that some of them, like the Thief's Tools one, why do I actually need these tools to accomplish things that don't require tools? Why isn't it just a skill since there's stuff that doesn't involve tools and how does the game envisage I structure those checks as it is written? I mean, you could argue that 4e Thievery covers a lot of ground and maybe it would be cool to distinguish the lock breaking expert from the pick pocket, but at least there's clearly a specific skill that covers those options, and it can also be used as a 'knowledge' (IE you can check Thievery to see what you KNOW ABOUT a lock, something that doesn't require tools). Plus, in 4e, you have lots of options to differentiate things. You could have a power that gives you better pocket picking, or an MP that works for learning how to crack a lock, or etc.  The problem is, being good at exploration doesn't excuse being bad in combat. That design IMPOSES either a specific mixture of adventure elements, or making some characters just plain less important in play. Honestly, I'm not sure how 'rudimentary' the exploration system is, I think you could play an exploration game, but I didn't see a lot of the procedural stuff from classic D&D emphasized. Obviously group skill checks fall FAR short of 4e's SCs.I mean, what is brilliant about 4e is you can (and I do) literally run ALL OF THE GAME within encounters (with VERY limited exceptions that are probably more related to my own inability to muster up the elements of an encounter every table minute). There's always direction, plot, goal. Something is happening, and its bearing on things the players are choosing to engage with. Its just much harder to do that with 5e, the tools are partially missing (though in all fairness you could just use SCs verbatim out of 4e in 5e, the issue of XP costs aside).</blockquote>

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