Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions, OSR, & D&D Variants
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
NOW LIVE! Today's the day you meet your new best friend. You don’t have to leave Wolfy behind... In 'Pets & Sidekicks' your companions level up with you!
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Manbearcat" data-source="post: 7034885" data-attributes="member: 6696971"><p>@<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6780330" target="_blank">Parmandur</a></u></strong></em> , after witnessing your continued exchange with [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] (and some of your other posts that are a bit confused on how 4e comes together), I figured I'd analyze a power so you understand precisely what it makes manifest in play. @<em><strong><u><a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6778044" target="_blank">Ilbranteloth</a></u></strong></em> , you may find this illuminating as well (given your most recent posts).</p><p></p><p>Take the level 6 Fighter Utility below:</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>1) 4e is a scene-based game. The (pretty much) exclusive locus of action is the encounter (combat or non-combat). The above is an Encounter power. That means it is available every scene for the Fighter who has it.</p><p></p><p>2) Its only keyword is Martial. That means this ability is born out by the Fighter's willpower, training, and dedication to honing physical prowess. That keyword says something about the character whose acumen/career is governed by it.</p><p></p><p>3) In the fiction, the effect line's mechanics means that in the crucible of conflict, the Fighter's physical capabilities will not flag due to being bulwarked by an uncommon steely will. </p><p></p><p>4) Further, note that this descriptor is basically fully open. Application isn't narrowed by a more specific fictional trigger (such as when climbing an obstacle or making an impossible leap). Consequently, this means that once every scene at the player's discretion, the Fighter is augmented with a +2 or +3 (depending on build) to an Athletics check. </p><p></p><p>5) Further, note the action economy; Minor Action. This would be the equivalent of Bonus Action in 5e. </p><p></p><p>6) Finally, consider that the vast majority of DCs at level 6 will be Medium, or DC 15. </p><p></p><p>All of the above work to provide the player of the Fighter what is called Author Stance capability. So here are the likely uses in 4e at level 6:</p><p></p><p>a) <strong><em>Noncombat scene resolution (the Skill Challenge). </em></strong> The group is scaling a treacherous cliff face. Two scenarios. </p><p></p><p>a1) It is a Complexity 1 SC (requiring only 4 Medium successes before 3 failures). Say I present the situation such that there are Perytons that nest up in these mountains (avian predators who would love a vulnerable snack, thus telegraphing the likely prospect for a sticky situation on a micro-failure). The face is crumbling significantly and nearly sheer in one section, and much more hospitable in another (the effort to navigate a narrow, but sure-footed, ridge that spirals up to a landing that is a short hand-climb from the top). However, the former is clearly the most expeditious route. I offer the PCs the prospect of a Group Athletics Check at the hard DC (23) for 3 successes (versus 2 successes if they go the other route - Medium DC Acrobatics). Decision-point for the players. The Fighter has a +14 Athletics check (+2 from Background/Race/Theme +3 level +4 Str +5 trained). Harnessing his steely will (Strong Focus Encounter Power) will grant him a further +3, bringing the necessary roll from a 9 to a 6. Now a 70 % chance to anchor the Hard Athletics check, meaning that only 1 of the other 3 characters need to achieve DC 23 to ensure they're halfway through their climb (1/2 group needs to reach the DC for success in a Group Check)! He leads the way, showing the best hand and footholds. The group follows and they're making tremendous gains...but (after which I would change the situation with some sort of complication as the scene is still in the balance).</p><p></p><p>a2) Consider that same situation, but they went the easy route. Now they're on the landing. The Dwarven Cleric says he feels the stone calling to him. He thinks there is a passage somewhere nearby that will grant them less risky ascent to the plateau's summit (removing the exposure to Peryton attack!). Alright, let's find out. He rolls his Dungeoneering + 9 (untrained, but racial + level + Wisdom). Gets a 5 or less. Failure!</p><p></p><p>Well, he finds purchase from the exposed ascent up the cliff face! A large crack in the face is nearly obscured by boulders. The Dwarf peers in. The sound of leathery wings unfolding. The thunderous roar of a lion. They've stumbled on a Manticore's lair! The beast begins its charge from the dark out to the landing!</p><p></p><p>The Fighter declares that he is sprinting up to the field of boulders in front of the den. He is going to throw everything he has into rolling it into the mouth of the lair to prevent the Manticore from attacking them on the narrow landing, so far from the ground. Very genre appropriate. I give them the option of upping the stakes a bit with another Hard DC for 2 success rather than 1. That would mean cementing the results of the scene as victory if he is successful (thus rendering the piddly hand climb to the top a triviality...we would just transition to the top afterward). The pumped Fighter player says let's do this! His Ranger buddy declares huzzah, he'll help as well! (1 Secondary Skill @ the Easy DC, 11 in this case, allowed in a C1 SC to augment a Primary Check). He runs up and throws his back into it after the Fighter leads the way. He succeeds and grants the Fighter a +2. The Fighter steels his will and summons his aptitude for exploiting leverage born on the back of endless training and focus (uses his Encounter Power Strong Focus). +19 total. Only needs a 4 or better to "win" the scene.</p><p></p><p>b) <strong><em>Combat Stunting. </em></strong> Its Indiana Jones. You're on a long, rickety rope bridge (Difficult Terrain every few squares) which spans a chasm. Enemies are coming from both sides. The Fighter wants to sway the bridge to knock his enemies prone or perhaps knock them off. He wants to try to knock them off (which would be a Slide 2 in this case). Alright, I tell him if he can pass the High DC, I'll let him have the Slide 2. Mechanically if you "Force Movement a target into Hindering Terrain (such as off a rope bridge into a deadly fall), the targets gets a Saving Throw (10+ on a d20) to be prone in the square next to the square where he would fall instead. The Fighter tells his allies to "HOLD ON" (they wrap the ropes around their arms and squat, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom style!). </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>c) Various <strong><em>Combat Move Action Declarations</em></strong> such as <em>Countermeasures </em>(Skill Checks) to avoid Hazard effects (rushing floodwaters, quick-sand, etc), <em>Escape a Grapple</em>, <em>Climb </em>or <em>Jump </em>an Obstacle (etc). </p><p></p><p>[HR][/HR]</p><p></p><p>I hope that makes clear how 4e's play principles ("say yes or roll the dice", "go to the action", "change the situation dynamically/fail forward"), resolution mechanics, and PC build architecture (the "tactical abilities"that have been alluded to) synergize to signal archetype, open up decision-point space for players in combat and noncombat scene resolution, and embolden players to actually make manifest within the fiction (by way of player author authorship) that signaled archetype.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Manbearcat, post: 7034885, member: 6696971"] @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6780330"]Parmandur[/URL][/U][/B][/I] , after witnessing your continued exchange with [MENTION=6704184]doctorbadwolf[/MENTION] (and some of your other posts that are a bit confused on how 4e comes together), I figured I'd analyze a power so you understand precisely what it makes manifest in play. @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6778044"]Ilbranteloth[/URL][/U][/B][/I] , you may find this illuminating as well (given your most recent posts). Take the level 6 Fighter Utility below: 1) 4e is a scene-based game. The (pretty much) exclusive locus of action is the encounter (combat or non-combat). The above is an Encounter power. That means it is available every scene for the Fighter who has it. 2) Its only keyword is Martial. That means this ability is born out by the Fighter's willpower, training, and dedication to honing physical prowess. That keyword says something about the character whose acumen/career is governed by it. 3) In the fiction, the effect line's mechanics means that in the crucible of conflict, the Fighter's physical capabilities will not flag due to being bulwarked by an uncommon steely will. 4) Further, note that this descriptor is basically fully open. Application isn't narrowed by a more specific fictional trigger (such as when climbing an obstacle or making an impossible leap). Consequently, this means that once every scene at the player's discretion, the Fighter is augmented with a +2 or +3 (depending on build) to an Athletics check. 5) Further, note the action economy; Minor Action. This would be the equivalent of Bonus Action in 5e. 6) Finally, consider that the vast majority of DCs at level 6 will be Medium, or DC 15. All of the above work to provide the player of the Fighter what is called Author Stance capability. So here are the likely uses in 4e at level 6: a) [B][I]Noncombat scene resolution (the Skill Challenge). [/I][/B] The group is scaling a treacherous cliff face. Two scenarios. a1) It is a Complexity 1 SC (requiring only 4 Medium successes before 3 failures). Say I present the situation such that there are Perytons that nest up in these mountains (avian predators who would love a vulnerable snack, thus telegraphing the likely prospect for a sticky situation on a micro-failure). The face is crumbling significantly and nearly sheer in one section, and much more hospitable in another (the effort to navigate a narrow, but sure-footed, ridge that spirals up to a landing that is a short hand-climb from the top). However, the former is clearly the most expeditious route. I offer the PCs the prospect of a Group Athletics Check at the hard DC (23) for 3 successes (versus 2 successes if they go the other route - Medium DC Acrobatics). Decision-point for the players. The Fighter has a +14 Athletics check (+2 from Background/Race/Theme +3 level +4 Str +5 trained). Harnessing his steely will (Strong Focus Encounter Power) will grant him a further +3, bringing the necessary roll from a 9 to a 6. Now a 70 % chance to anchor the Hard Athletics check, meaning that only 1 of the other 3 characters need to achieve DC 23 to ensure they're halfway through their climb (1/2 group needs to reach the DC for success in a Group Check)! He leads the way, showing the best hand and footholds. The group follows and they're making tremendous gains...but (after which I would change the situation with some sort of complication as the scene is still in the balance). a2) Consider that same situation, but they went the easy route. Now they're on the landing. The Dwarven Cleric says he feels the stone calling to him. He thinks there is a passage somewhere nearby that will grant them less risky ascent to the plateau's summit (removing the exposure to Peryton attack!). Alright, let's find out. He rolls his Dungeoneering + 9 (untrained, but racial + level + Wisdom). Gets a 5 or less. Failure! Well, he finds purchase from the exposed ascent up the cliff face! A large crack in the face is nearly obscured by boulders. The Dwarf peers in. The sound of leathery wings unfolding. The thunderous roar of a lion. They've stumbled on a Manticore's lair! The beast begins its charge from the dark out to the landing! The Fighter declares that he is sprinting up to the field of boulders in front of the den. He is going to throw everything he has into rolling it into the mouth of the lair to prevent the Manticore from attacking them on the narrow landing, so far from the ground. Very genre appropriate. I give them the option of upping the stakes a bit with another Hard DC for 2 success rather than 1. That would mean cementing the results of the scene as victory if he is successful (thus rendering the piddly hand climb to the top a triviality...we would just transition to the top afterward). The pumped Fighter player says let's do this! His Ranger buddy declares huzzah, he'll help as well! (1 Secondary Skill @ the Easy DC, 11 in this case, allowed in a C1 SC to augment a Primary Check). He runs up and throws his back into it after the Fighter leads the way. He succeeds and grants the Fighter a +2. The Fighter steels his will and summons his aptitude for exploiting leverage born on the back of endless training and focus (uses his Encounter Power Strong Focus). +19 total. Only needs a 4 or better to "win" the scene. b) [B][I]Combat Stunting. [/I][/B] Its Indiana Jones. You're on a long, rickety rope bridge (Difficult Terrain every few squares) which spans a chasm. Enemies are coming from both sides. The Fighter wants to sway the bridge to knock his enemies prone or perhaps knock them off. He wants to try to knock them off (which would be a Slide 2 in this case). Alright, I tell him if he can pass the High DC, I'll let him have the Slide 2. Mechanically if you "Force Movement a target into Hindering Terrain (such as off a rope bridge into a deadly fall), the targets gets a Saving Throw (10+ on a d20) to be prone in the square next to the square where he would fall instead. The Fighter tells his allies to "HOLD ON" (they wrap the ropes around their arms and squat, Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom style!). c) Various [B][I]Combat Move Action Declarations[/I][/B] such as [I]Countermeasures [/I](Skill Checks) to avoid Hazard effects (rushing floodwaters, quick-sand, etc), [I]Escape a Grapple[/I], [I]Climb [/I]or [I]Jump [/I]an Obstacle (etc). [HR][/HR] I hope that makes clear how 4e's play principles ("say yes or roll the dice", "go to the action", "change the situation dynamically/fail forward"), resolution mechanics, and PC build architecture (the "tactical abilities"that have been alluded to) synergize to signal archetype, open up decision-point space for players in combat and noncombat scene resolution, and embolden players to actually make manifest within the fiction (by way of player author authorship) that signaled archetype. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
Speculation about "the feelz" of D&D 4th Edition
Top