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<blockquote data-quote="Mon" data-source="post: 4344684" data-attributes="member: 71673">Hi Jack and StreamOfTheSky,&nbsp;Thanks for the feedback.&nbsp;&nbsp;Yeah, This one I foresaw. No great loss, IMO. Thanks for the heads-up though.&nbsp;&nbsp;This is part of the intention (see design goals). I've never seen a wizard achieve anything other than wasting an action with these spells after about 13th level. YMMV. &quot;Even more powerful&quot; than almost useless (at such high levels) is a Good Thing (tm) IMO.&nbsp;Of course, my obtuseness aside (with apologies), &quot;Even more powerful&quot; than powerful is a Bad Thing (tm) as you say. I agree that at levels where save-or-suck spells were still useful under the orginal formula and potentially get a DC boost with the proposed formula, they might be too good. &nbsp;However, I think &quot;Save or Suck&quot; spells are a diffferent problem in their own right and thus deserve a nerfing house rule of their very own (probably a save each round to shake them off or stave them off, a-la 4e).&nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm yes it is. And yes, I do. I'll discuss the several caster nerfing house rules I have in mind in another thread I guess. Or maybe another post later on in this one.&nbsp;Thanks for the feedback <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />&nbsp;&nbsp;Hmmm, you know what? That sounds pretty sweet. Thanks.&nbsp;This tactic is viable using either system... see also response regarding save-or-suck spells being a seperate problem.&nbsp;&nbsp;So why should a 5th level wizard be able to use it on his enemies effectively, but a 15th level one can't? (without heighten spell).&nbsp;&nbsp;I dunno... metamagic has never really seemed worth it to our group due to our early experiences with 3e leading us to conclude that, in general, spell level X + metamagic addition Y usually provides an equal or worse outcome than spells of level X+Y, for the same slot and a feat. There are, of course, exceptions (quicken spell, splatbook metamagic insanity, etc)&nbsp;Thus this one slipped by me... I know that other groups feel differently so it is probably significant none-the-less. Thanks for the heads up here, Jack Smith. I'll ponder it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Mon, post: 4344684, member: 71673"] Hi Jack and StreamOfTheSky, Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, This one I foresaw. No great loss, IMO. Thanks for the heads-up though. This is part of the intention (see design goals). I've never seen a wizard achieve anything other than wasting an action with these spells after about 13th level. YMMV. "Even more powerful" than almost useless (at such high levels) is a Good Thing (tm) IMO. Of course, my obtuseness aside (with apologies), "Even more powerful" than powerful is a Bad Thing (tm) as you say. I agree that at levels where save-or-suck spells were still useful under the orginal formula and potentially get a DC boost with the proposed formula, they might be too good. However, I think "Save or Suck" spells are a diffferent problem in their own right and thus deserve a nerfing house rule of their very own (probably a save each round to shake them off or stave them off, a-la 4e). Hmmm yes it is. And yes, I do. I'll discuss the several caster nerfing house rules I have in mind in another thread I guess. Or maybe another post later on in this one. Thanks for the feedback :) Hmmm, you know what? That sounds pretty sweet. Thanks. This tactic is viable using either system... see also response regarding save-or-suck spells being a seperate problem. So why should a 5th level wizard be able to use it on his enemies effectively, but a 15th level one can't? (without heighten spell). I dunno... metamagic has never really seemed worth it to our group due to our early experiences with 3e leading us to conclude that, in general, spell level X + metamagic addition Y usually provides an equal or worse outcome than spells of level X+Y, for the same slot and a feat. There are, of course, exceptions (quicken spell, splatbook metamagic insanity, etc) Thus this one slipped by me... I know that other groups feel differently so it is probably significant none-the-less. Thanks for the heads up here, Jack Smith. I'll ponder it. [/QUOTE]

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