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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mon" data-source="post: 4347764" data-attributes="member: 71673">Hi Jack,Again thanks for all the feedback - you're giving me alot to think about <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I'm not missing a side effect - this exact thing is an intentional feature (and one of the main design goals) of the reserve system, rather than a bug. This area is where our game experiences differ, I think. IME, the lack of "endurance" (meaning, they run out of spells) doesn't work out as a balancing factor on the wizard and other casters - at least not a good one. Instead, it is a game-staller for the whole party due to being one of the primary culprits behind the "5 minute adventuring day" aka "caster goes nova then rests".  Infact, this reserve system doesn't make the wizard more powerful - it just lets him remain at around the same power level for longer. When you think about it in terms of the "action economy" the 4e crowd speak of*, the wizard still has only X actions per battle for N battles. All the reserve system does is increase the size of N. Now he can have X actions for more battles before resting, and they're not ineffective. The point about casters turing lower level slots over to buffs and so forth is a very good one though.... definately worth a ponder. Thanks <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> * Disclaimer: 4e isn't my cup of tea, however many of their design philosophies seem sound to me.  No, it just remains viable for longer in terms of both levels of play and encoutners per day.  All of this is represented by... higher save bonuses. Not by lower save DCs. By the same token, a high level wizard has more experience overcoming magical resistances, has more magic power to put behind his spells, is better at targeting things et cetera. Charm Person is lower level than Dominate Person because the effects of Charm < the effects of Dominate.  I have pondered the metamagic thing overnight, and then found your example here this morning. In this example you're ignoring the Delay feature of DBF which, if the Delay Spell metamagic feat is anything to go by, is worth 3 levels all by itself. The delay feature is a key contributer to DBF's higher level, not just the damage. Lets compare Fireball modified by Empower Spell and Delay Spell (8th-level slot) vs. unmodified Delayed Blast Fireball (7th level slot). Two spells that do (roughly) the same thing. For the former, you've burned two feats and used a higher level spell slot. Not only that, but your 8th level spell has a DC 4 lower than your 7th level one into the bargain. devil's advocateCone of Cold better illustrates your point, I think (unless I am off base) - but then you lose the two-level bump DBF bings. Different range/area and energy type aside, empowered FB trumps CoC in terms of raw average damage at levels 9-14, FTW!/devil's advocate However, you've then spent a feat so that your empowered FB averages ~12 more damage than CoC at best (9th level) and ~3 damage at worst (14th level). You've taken a -2 hit to the save DC as well. If saves are made, the extra damage falls to about 6 and 1 respectively. I know many folks think this feat-slot & DC-hit trade off for that extra 12 (or less) average damage is worth it. Our group, though, generally doesn't. With the reserve system, you've burned a feat to empower your FB so it does a bit more damage than CoC with no DC hit. Now THAT might be worth burning a feat for. Maybe. YMMV. -- I guess, what I'm getting at, is that you are right - this is a boost to casters (but this I already knew, as stated in my OP). However it is a boost in terms of how many of their daily spells are useful at a given time, not in terms of the raw power they can put down at the game table in a single round - with either save-or-suck or raw damage spells. I.e. it drags up the bottom without pushing up the top. Mostly, anyway. In other words, Magical Trevor the 15th level wizard may average higher damage with his fireball by virtue of a potentially higher save DC. He may also nauseate more baddies with his stinking cloud (more than 0, that is). But neither of these effects is more powerful than effects he can achieve with Horrid Wilting or Irresistable Dance (infact, they are generally less powerful for the same reason that charm < dominate). And he can't use any more of them per round, either. He can just do it for longer (i.e. more encounters). Outcomes so far... 1. This means most of the Magical Trevor's actions are meaningful and powerful. Given this was mostly the case anyway due to the nova/rest thing, no problem here. 2. This means more encounters between rests. Good, first design goal achieved. 3. This encourages Magical Trevor to start with his Charms and Colour Sprays before moving up to his Domnates and Scintillating Patterns. Good, second design goal achived. Unresolved issue so far... 1. It does require more thinking about lower level slots not all being turned over to buffs... buffs are an important part of play, afterall. 2. Maybe I haven't finished considering the metamagic thing yet... Other issue that are indirectly related (i.e. they apply to some extent no matter which DC formula you use). 1. Save-or-sucks need a good ol' fashioned nerfing. 2. Caster vs. Non-caster relative power levels need addressing. Thanks for all of the feedback... it really is helpful even in instances where I disagree, because it forces me to think about it. -- Mon</blockquote>

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