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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Mon" data-source="post: 4348636" data-attributes="member: 71673">Hi StreamOfTheSky, Thanks for the feedback, and sorry for leaving you off the greetings/thanks earlier. Granted, a wizard can find a stack of out-of-combat uses for spells. But that isn't the issue here at all - out of combat spells aren't affected by a change in save DC, which is the only proposed change (at least in this thread)... You've pointed out another dose of spells that may need a good stiff hit with the nerf bat, save DC formula aside. Might add this to my other thread about nerfing casters. Thanks, Stream <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Back on topic, I think that the "action economy" rationale holds water for these three reasons: 1. 3e is an "action economy" and "combat based" game just as much as (or at least, almost as much as) 4e is. That's why there are different action types and most (but not all) of the written material deals with combat-related stuff. The 4e designers only gave names to things that have always been there - at least in the editions of D&D I've played: Mentzer BECMI, 2e, and 3e. 2. Spell save DCs (the only thing changed here) apply to combat spells almost exclusively. When are spell saves used outside combat?* Hence "combat" is a valid context for this discussion. 3. "Action economy" mechanics began to creep in during late 3e design, with things like the Bo9S and the fighter features in PHB2, so it clearly applies to 3e as well - at least to some extent.*EDIT: Charms and so forth in social encounters, I suppose. And the odd sleep to sneak past some guards. Those things also apply in 4e though, as powers, so it doesn't undermine my point that the so called "action economy" rationale is valid. However, such encounters would seem to be another valid context for discussion. sweet <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> I agree with this 110%: However, this is incorrect:  For this reason... A potential save DC increase doesn't make spider climb, fly, or knock any more powerful. Those sorts of spells don't use saves. If anything, the reserve system encourages casters to use their slots for more "in combat" effects meaning they'll prepare these spells LESS often. We don't use psionics, so I wouldn't know. A trade-off of some kind isn't what I'm after though - just more encounters between rests.--My POV in summary:1. A save DC increase != an across the board increase in power for all spells - it doesn't affect most non-combat spells at all. 2. It doesn't increase the power of the caster's actions - it just makes him more likely to spend actions on lower level spells (charm < dominate even with the same DC) instead of resting when his highest few spell levels are depleted, thereby spreading spell resource across a greater number of actions. 3. The save DCs will not always be through the roof - they scale down if the caster does his best stuff. Things for me to consider1. Nerfing utility spells that overshadow non-casters' niches (a separate issue 'cause those spells don't have DCs, but related).2. Low level slots get shifted over to buffs and utilities (somewhat related to the above, perhaps?).3. Change the rule a bit so that the highest unused spell level available determines the DC, or some other tweak like that.I am grateful to both you and Jack Smith for making me think deeply through some things I hadn't considered - which will lead to me likely implimenting the change that you suggested upthread.  Please keep the analyses and counter-statements coming... although I seem to stubbornly resist this is not my intention - I have gained several points of value from them (see above) - and that's why I'm here <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> Cheers, Mon.</blockquote>

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