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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Spell Focus 3.5: WAH! Was it that bad?
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<blockquote data-quote="(Psi)SeveredHead" data-source="post: 1037230" data-attributes="member: 1165"><p>That's statistically impossible. The creature has an equal chance of making every save unless he has access to the Protection domain or Moment of Prescience.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It takes only one successful <em>suggestion</em> to remove an opponent from the fight ... provided you use the proper <em>suggestion</em>.</p><p></p><p><em>Suggestion</em> isn't the best example, since the PHB is <em>not</em> clear on it's effects, just like the illusion effects. You would be better off discussing a more useful spell. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Almost ... this assumes your DM isn't cheating, however.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Sounds like your DM is cheating.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Yes. You're supposed to use the same amount of resources <em>most of the time</em> whether you use save-or-consequences or direct damage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's a gamble. If the battle ends on round one, that means less risk to yourself. Of course, you can't count on the spell working, either. Even Evocations have limits, however - there are lots of creatures that are resistant or immune to an element. In 3.5 these elemental resistances have, for the most part, been reduced. However, a 2nd-level spell can nearly trump <em>meteor swarm</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>He loses hit points instead - these come back more slowly than wizard spell slots (more likely, they take away the cleric's spell slots instead).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You can try that, but those high-CR/high-SR monsters often have more hit points now - even some of the celestials - so you're still going to be sitting there tossing spells at them for several rounds. While you're tossing those AoE evocations, the other party members (fighters and rogues, maybe clerics) can't engage the creature in melee. AoE becomes a lot better when your opponent is capable of flying.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you ask me the <em>image</em> spells were weak to begin with. I have found <em>displacement</em> and <em>mirror image</em>, along with the <em>invisiblity</em> spells to be far more useful than <em>major</em>-"hey Mr. DM what does this spell do again?"-<em>image</em>.</p><p></p><p>Kamikaze Midget</p><p></p><p></p><p>The spell level has no effect on SR.</p><p></p><p>Balgus</p><p></p><p></p><p>True ... but a 10th-level cleric doesn't have that many save-or-consequences spells in any event. S-o-C spells don't become "the king" until 13th-level or so.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How does he know the NPC saves? Sometimes it's hard to tell their character class. In any event, it's often (but not always) easy to tell a creature's saves. If it's an unintelligent beast, like a dire tiger, use a Will-save-or-consequences spell. If it's a giant, do the same thing. If it's a spellweaver, try <em>slay living</em>.</p><p></p><p>Note that cleric save-or-consequences spells are usually only Fortitude-save-or-die spells. <em>Mass command</em> has a language and complexity restriction that reduces the range of creatures it will work on. (I wonder - can you <em>command</em> a trained dog to "sit"? <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite8" alt=":D" title="Big grin :D" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":D" /> )</p><p></p><p>This is why wizards have better spellcasting ability than clerics - I have found <em>Otiluke's resilient sphere</em>, <em>hold monster</em> and <em>flesh to stone</em> to be very useful, for instance.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I think they were focusing on wizards for this feat ... however, the cleric should only take Spell Focus (Necromancy), whereas a wizard might take two or three Spell Focus feats.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If it's a monk, even your <em>lightning bolt</em> probably won't work... Actually, every class has a bad save, <em>even the monk</em>! A monk's "bad" save is Fortitude. It's just usually higher than a wizard's Fortitude save.</p><p></p><p>Wizards have access to a lot of spells that don't even allow saves, especially at higher levels. Or just use <em>web</em>, which is plain amazing. Or <em>summon monster</em> if that's your style. A cleric who runs into a brute monster probably can't use <em>slay living</em> effectively on it, but he can still "buff-n-bash" which is something a wizard can't do until at least 11th-level (and then pay through the nose for that option).</p><p></p><p>Elder Basilisk posted a nice rebuttal to the "Feats/class features" discussion, but what about the "poor saving throw" discussion? I believe that was the main point of Ryan Dancey's statement.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="(Psi)SeveredHead, post: 1037230, member: 1165"] That's statistically impossible. The creature has an equal chance of making every save unless he has access to the Protection domain or Moment of Prescience. It takes only one successful [i]suggestion[/i] to remove an opponent from the fight ... provided you use the proper [i]suggestion[/i]. [i]Suggestion[/i] isn't the best example, since the PHB is [i]not[/i] clear on it's effects, just like the illusion effects. You would be better off discussing a more useful spell. ;) Almost ... this assumes your DM isn't cheating, however. Sounds like your DM is cheating. Yes. You're supposed to use the same amount of resources [i]most of the time[/i] whether you use save-or-consequences or direct damage. It's a gamble. If the battle ends on round one, that means less risk to yourself. Of course, you can't count on the spell working, either. Even Evocations have limits, however - there are lots of creatures that are resistant or immune to an element. In 3.5 these elemental resistances have, for the most part, been reduced. However, a 2nd-level spell can nearly trump [i]meteor swarm[/i]. He loses hit points instead - these come back more slowly than wizard spell slots (more likely, they take away the cleric's spell slots instead). You can try that, but those high-CR/high-SR monsters often have more hit points now - even some of the celestials - so you're still going to be sitting there tossing spells at them for several rounds. While you're tossing those AoE evocations, the other party members (fighters and rogues, maybe clerics) can't engage the creature in melee. AoE becomes a lot better when your opponent is capable of flying. If you ask me the [i]image[/i] spells were weak to begin with. I have found [i]displacement[/i] and [i]mirror image[/i], along with the [i]invisiblity[/i] spells to be far more useful than [i]major[/i]-"hey Mr. DM what does this spell do again?"-[i]image[/i]. Kamikaze Midget The spell level has no effect on SR. Balgus True ... but a 10th-level cleric doesn't have that many save-or-consequences spells in any event. S-o-C spells don't become "the king" until 13th-level or so. How does he know the NPC saves? Sometimes it's hard to tell their character class. In any event, it's often (but not always) easy to tell a creature's saves. If it's an unintelligent beast, like a dire tiger, use a Will-save-or-consequences spell. If it's a giant, do the same thing. If it's a spellweaver, try [i]slay living[/i]. Note that cleric save-or-consequences spells are usually only Fortitude-save-or-die spells. [i]Mass command[/i] has a language and complexity restriction that reduces the range of creatures it will work on. (I wonder - can you [i]command[/i] a trained dog to "sit"? :D ) This is why wizards have better spellcasting ability than clerics - I have found [i]Otiluke's resilient sphere[/i], [i]hold monster[/i] and [i]flesh to stone[/i] to be very useful, for instance. I think they were focusing on wizards for this feat ... however, the cleric should only take Spell Focus (Necromancy), whereas a wizard might take two or three Spell Focus feats. If it's a monk, even your [i]lightning bolt[/i] probably won't work... Actually, every class has a bad save, [i]even the monk[/i]! A monk's "bad" save is Fortitude. It's just usually higher than a wizard's Fortitude save. Wizards have access to a lot of spells that don't even allow saves, especially at higher levels. Or just use [i]web[/i], which is plain amazing. Or [i]summon monster[/i] if that's your style. A cleric who runs into a brute monster probably can't use [i]slay living[/i] effectively on it, but he can still "buff-n-bash" which is something a wizard can't do until at least 11th-level (and then pay through the nose for that option). Elder Basilisk posted a nice rebuttal to the "Feats/class features" discussion, but what about the "poor saving throw" discussion? I believe that was the main point of Ryan Dancey's statement. [/QUOTE]
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