spell idea for knowing about monsters: scan

[evilbob]

I'm sure this idea is too obvious to not have been done before, but please feel free to evaluate the strength / level of this spell, and whether or not it is "worth" what it does. Thx.

Scan
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster is granted one immediate Knowledge check of the appropriate type for the targeted creature. This Knowledge check may be taken even if a Knowledge check has already been performed (allowing a retry), and if the caster has no ranks in the appropriate skill (allowing untrained usage). The caster may choose to take 10 on this Knowledge check (regardless of the situation). Even if the Knowledge check fails to produce any new or useful information, it unerringly reveals the target creature's type and subtype(s), if any. Any spell that disguises a creature's type or subtype also fools this spell. This spell counters and dispells disguise self.

Focus
A magnifying glass.



Discussion: The name is basically ripped from the Final Fantasy mythos, and is easily changed, but that's basically what you're doing. No save and no SR is big for a level 1 spell, but it also doesn't "do" much and has a very expensive focus (100g). Would it be worth dropping the focus? Raising the level? Including a save?

Edit: One thought: it could be considered relatively powerful for creatures who are using mundane disguises to hide their type.

Edit: Changed description to include subtypes, changed how spell is fooled, removed counter-spell, and added to Bard list.

 

[Roger]

Looks fine to me; might make it a level 0 spell, or maybe just level 0 for bards.

I'm mostly comparing it to Detect Evil, which also has no SR and no Saving Throw.

You might want to clarify if it reveals all the target's subtypes.


Cheers,
Roger

 

[evilbob]

Those are good thoughts. I've decided it would be most useful to reveal types and subtypes, and keep it at level 1. Detect evil is something that can get past mundane disguises, but this spell works instantly and detect evil takes about 3 rounds to really work. Giving it to Bards also makes a lot of sense.

What about countering a spell of a different school? Is that something for which there is a precedent? I was also wondering about dumping the Knowledge check part of it altogether, and perhaps giving a save vs. information. However, keeping the Knowledge check, while a strange mechanic for a spell, gives it a nice power curve that keeps it useful (arguably more useful) at high levels.

 

[Nikroecyst]

Now my basis is totally free form so I am basing my opinion on game play experience and not actuall statistics.

I tend to find that what the players/characters know and do not know greatly increases the chance of failure or sucess for either side of the battle. I would, if it were in my campaign, up the level of the spell OR add "Spell Resistance: Yes".

You might also consider it just being a free Knowlege Check with a hefty DC attachted to it. That way you are being more than fair but strict at the same time.

However, there is a player in my group who uses either a class ability or a feat to gain knowledge of the creatures they fight. Off the top of my head I can't seem to cite the source, but you might want to check the complete Mage, Arcane, and Scoundrel for realevant Feats, Skills, and Spells.

Good luck

 

[evilbob]

I tend to find that what the players/characters know and do not know greatly increases the chance of failure or sucess for either side of the battle.

I think this is also a very good point. That's partially why I like the Knowledge check mechanic - it rewards players who've invested in "knowing" about monsters, but doesn't give much to those who have not. It also scales with level/CR relatively well.

I basically see two ways of going with this idea: either a spell that levels along with you and gives potentially lots of information but tries to not be too powerful, or one that gives a small, static amount of information no matter what - like a level 0 spell that gives type/subtype only and is fooled by magic. That's less useful (1 round of high-level combat is a very high price to pay) but easier to adjucate. Maybe scan, lesser?

 

[Roger]

You might also consider it just being a free Knowlege Check with a hefty DC attachted to it. That way you are being more than fair but strict at the same time.

Sort of like a True Strike for Knowledge skills? That sounds promising.

 

[evilbob]

After thinking about this a bit more, I still like the idea of a Knowledge check, but I don't know if I want the spell to "make a new check," because that seems like a weird mechanic. Perhaps this description:

Description: The caster is granted information about the target as if she had made a Knowledge check of the appropriate type with a roll of 10, using her own bonuses and ranks as appropriate. If the caster has no ranks in the appropriate skill, she is considered to have 1/2 rank for the purposes of this spell. Even if the Knowledge check fails to produce any new or useful information, it always reveals the target creature's type and subtype(s), if any - however, any spell that disguises a creature's type or subtype also fools this spell.


Also, I think the "close" mechanic does a decent job of balancing the usefulness of this spell. I was wondering if it should also include itself as one of the spells that works through a scrying spell, but that may increase the power too much. And lastly, I'm still fairly sure that requiring a round of combat to be useful (although easily quickened for the price of a 5th level spell) limits its power to a good place in high-level combat.

Overall the biggest problem I see with this whole spell design is really with the Knowledge skill itself. At least for all pre-MM4 monsters, it is very vague as to how much it gives away. How much do you really tell your players on a good roll, since Knowledge checks can influence the battle a great deal? And the "10 + HD" mechanic is clearly out of whack with most monsters. 15 + CR would be much better.

 

[evilbob]

The problem with my previous post is that unless you just rolled a Knowledge check that you know you got less than a 10 on, the spell is kinda useless. It sort of encourages a focus on numbers, which isn't what I was trying to do.

At this point I have two different directions to go: either a spell that takes away the Knowledge mechanic altogether, or - as suggested above - a "true strike" for Knowledge checks. We'll call them a) and b).

I like a) being arcane only, but b) seems more fair if everyone gets a shot. I expanded the range of a) to compensate for the save and SR, and made it work through scrying as well. It's also good for Empower if you really want to know about stuff. I have a feeling b) may be too powerful, but anything less than +10 seems like it's just not enough and anything more seems way too much. More comments welcome.


a) Scan
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target: One creature
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: Will partial (see text)
Spell Resistance: Yes

The caster is granted information about the target of this spell. If the targeted creature makes its save, the caster only gains information about the creature's type and subtype(s), if any. If the targeted creature fails its save, the caster learns its type and subtype(s), as well as 1d4+1 useful pieces of useful information about the creature, including but not limited to: its native plane, a specific immunity, a specific vulnerability, whether or not it has damage reduction, what pierces its damage reduction, a common spell-like ability, etc. Any spell or magical effect that disguises a creature's type or subtype also fools this spell. Additionally, this spell has a 5% chance per caster level of working through a scrying spell, and works normally through a greater scrying spell.

Focus
A magnifying glass.

===========

b) Scan
Divination
Level: Brd 1, Clr 1, Drd 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, F
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target: Personal
Duration: Instantaneous
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No

The caster may make an immediate Knowledge check of the appropriate type to find out about a single creature in range with a +10 circumstance bonus to the check. This Knowledge check may be used to find out about a creature that the caster has already attempted a Knowledge check for (allowing a retry), and if the caster has no ranks in the appropriate Knowledge skill, she is considered to have 1/2 rank for the purpose of this spell.

Focus
A magnifying glass.