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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Abraxas" data-source="post: 1166912" data-attributes="member: 1266">Yes definitely a difference of opinion on those passages regarding when the -20 applies, but thats why were discussing this. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  My gaming group uses the -20 when you don't have to move (target moves within an area you threaten while hiding) or when sniping (ranged attack and hide again). In our games, characters without the HiPS special ability normally can't leap out and attack and still be hiding because of the "You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check." (PHB - pg.76)  requirement listed in the description of the hide skill.  If they no longer have cover or concealment they can't even attempt to hide.  However, other PCs engaging a foe (or other enemies in the melee) can provide cover, and thats what the sneaky PCs in our group wait for before moving in to attack. If a PC/or other oppopnent is between the target and our sneaky friend, they provide our sneaky friend cover and he can then attempt to hide wrt the target, at -20 + other penalties depnding on how he moves.  IMO this is how the rules as written work, but I've been wrong before <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />On top of all this he still has to be unheard also - probably not to hard when there's a lot of fighting going on <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />In the next game I run, however, I'm going to houserule and use a -10 penalty to the hide check and the distance between the target and the hiding character can be no more than 1 foot per (rank in the hide skill + racial modifiers to hide).</blockquote>

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