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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Man in the Funny Hat" data-source="post: 6828373" data-attributes="member: 32740">I've posted this opinion before I'm sure, but rather than go back through 10 or 15 years of posts I'll just type it up again.The rules you're looking for are p.175-176 of the PH.  Fireball is a 20'r. spread.  That just means that the fire effect goes around corners.  Other than that you need line of effect to a "point of origin" - the intended location for the center of the spell effect.  Even, "An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect."  [PH p.175.]  A troll is not a solid barrier.  Two trolls are not a solid barrier.  Two trolls beyond a PC on the front line are still not what constitutes a solid barrier.The player is correct in this:  If his PC can see one corner of a square - he can hit it.  Pretty much like a ranged attack [this is PH p.151]: If the line between caster and the point of origin passes through a square that blocks line-of-SIGHT, provides cover, or is occupied by a creature, then according to the rules for RANGED attacks and cover there's a +4 bonus to AC.  Below that there's a note about cover and reflex saving throws - Fireball being the example used.  It says that cover will provide a +2 to the save - but Fireball NEGATES that bonus because it's a spread effect which extends AROUND cover.  Technically, that applies only to the exploding ball of fire itself and not the pea that's streaking to the point of origin prior to the explosion, but the principle is the same, which is: If you can SEE it, then you can drop a spell there.  Same as shooting an arrow at a target - if you can SEE it, then you can SHOOT it; having cover just makes it a little more difficult.  For spells that difficulty is represented by adjustments to saving throws, or perhaps a ranged touch attack such as for rays or the specific mention of arrow slits and fireballs.You know that part about putting a fireball through an arrow slit?  Know what that's about?  That's about putting a fireball through an arrow slit!  It's NOT a general rule for targeting of the spell at all times.  If it were about making a ranged-touch attack ANY time there were something remotely in the way then it would say, "ANY TIME there is something in the way between the caster and the point of origin the caster must make a ranged touch attack - or else..."  But it says "arrow slit".  Know how big an arrow slit is in general?  About 1 square foot is not an unreasonable approximation - an area like is described on p.175 in the rule about line-of-effect.  In other words, if there is 1 square foot or less of space in an otherwise SOLID WALL then you make a ranged touch attack to get a fireball through.  If there is more space than that, then a ranged touch attack IS NOT REQUIRED.  In fact, NO special targeting is then required.Now if you WANT there to be special problems for targeting a fireball beyond what's already written into the spell and the rules that's one thing - but that's a DM's OWN decision at work, not the rules at work.One of the other issues that seems to get tossed into people's issues with Fireball (when, oddly, it seldom seems to me to crop up in regard to any other spell), is that, "things are moving around."  Well, technically that's true, but for the purposes of D&D rules it doesn't matter.  Moving around a lot maybe makes your AC better.  It might give you a bonus to a reflex save.  It doesn't matter though if the trolls are taking 3 attacks or 33, nor if they're moving 30' or 330' in that round.  Their melee combat movements do not enter into preventing arrows, spells, or even small creatures from getting by them.  Heck the LARGER the creature the MORE space there is to get by them.Yes, that's right - a size tiny creature, such as a cat or a hawk, can freely move through a square occupied by a size large troll (setting aside such things as attacks of opportunity, reach and threatened spaces).  [PH, p.148] If a troll were one size larger, "giant", then size "small" Halflings would be able to move freely past them (and vice versa - the giant would be able to step over a Halfling without issue).  But an even smaller arrow, or the pea of a fireball is to be blocked?  Nope.  Just not how that works.Because it's a game and it's TURN-based - when it's your turn to act, things are where they are.  You don't factor in where they were, where they will be, nor what they are doing now, were doing a moment ago, or will be doing on their turn.  For purposes of SANITY in determining what you can or can't see, target, affect, hit, etc. NOTHING IS MOVING.  For purposes of making rules determinations, everything is frozen right where it is while you make your determinations.  When things DO happen simultaneously there are rules to cover it.  Rules like taking readied actions.  But even if the caster and the trolls are taking their turns simultaneously, for purposes of making targeting determinations, nobody is really moving at all and positions are further constrained into units of 5' squares.  There's no reason to be making Fireball an exception to any of that, beyond what it already is.Lastly, just wanted to emphasize that the ENTIRE notion of the spell being able to detonate prematurely has never been about hitting things that you see.  It's about the danger of the spell hitting things that you DON'T see. Things like a Wall of Force, or an invisible opponent. When you decide it's going to be about things you DO see instead of just the latter you're just burdening yourself with adjudication headaches and have nobody but yourself to blame for it.  Honestly, I half expected that 3E's rules for spell effects would have finally eliminated Fireball as a continuing problem, if only for 3E, but it still keeps going and going...I'm not sure what it is about Fireball exactly that makes DM's so crazy about how to handle it.JMNSHO</blockquote>

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