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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Frostbiter01" data-source="post: 6829454" data-attributes="member: 6677201">The question was not on the mechanic of the spread we know the action once it hits something or explodes at a designated point. Even in your answer above you have but muddled the waters without answering the question. If there is a hole in an iron wall to pass a spell out but a monster stands in front of the hole you cannot fire through it. Secondly if the monster moves back and forth so that you only have partial view of the 12”x12” hole you would have an obstruction to this and possibly be considered less than 12”x12” so he is prohibited or does he still get to try and roll some modified roll? Now say there is a solid door with a 12”x12” opening with 3 solid 1”w x 12”L iron bars in the opening thus reducing the availability to actually view through be 9”x9” is this still allowed to cast Fireball through or does it not now meet the 12” minimum? What if the party is at a wall and can see into a room down the shoot about 5’ long but it is 12”x12” opening. But in the middle is a fan blade that moves inside the shoot and in a 4 second sweep shows fully blocked during second 1, seconds 2 and 4 show partially blocked and second 3 shows unblocked. Do you allow the fireball to enter the room or say it is not achievable thus automatic failure for the wizard if he tries anyway or do you create an obstructed shot with a chance of hitting the blade?Again you do not take into account that seeing the corner of a square does not mean you can hit it. The mage fires from through a door window from 15’ away only to have it explode because there was a very clear window in it that his spot check did not reveal. Do you allow it to pass through? The wizard fires across the room to envelop a small NPC party but after traveling 10’ it explodes as there was a wall of force thrown up during battle that the Wizard did not spot. Though they can see the spot it will not reach the given square? Why because there is a rule that states this spell if it hits something solid (whatever it is) it explodes. A wizard fires a fireball to the other end of a passage thinking to take out 4 orc guards. Unfortunately, there is a large Ogre Brute who is invisible standing still waiting for the party to approach halfway between them and the orcs. Hmm, he takes up 4 squares of the hallway no way around and his head club near the ceiling with the wizard firing about 5’ off the floor which is about the widest point of the Ogre. Did he hit it or because he is not a totally solid obstacle do you rule he gets to fire it straight down even if the line of effect went straight down the middle of the hallway? I think we are trying to say if the target is obstructed from view part of the time it is harder to hit. If there is something in front of that spell that the wizard is unaware of, it becomes harder to hit. This is true it is an arrow slit but it is a standard to be compared too because if it was just the 12x12 hole in a solid surface then that is all they would have to say they would not have to say an arrow slit at all. Again we are not saying to target the spell at all times just certain circumstances. No one is disputing clean openings we are talking openings that close or shrink below legal size during combat. Actually I think that is what you are doing, by ignoring other rules and conditions.While I agree with you that it does and doesn’t matter about moving around, I think the rules are clear you are. In fact that is why back attacks are not really permissible you are said to be moving back and forth able to defend all flanks. The rules say it is a 6 second round that all parties are moving in and unless you are playing a countdown in that round by initiative you have to consider the battel of thrusts and parries to be included in the round. I would say you have a point if a surprise round or flat footed targets but we are not talking about that here. Firing through obstructions is a +4 to AC as explained by others above. This was a plausible explanation to use in targeting a given square. To compare innate objects like arrows and spells with the same intelligence as the Halfling or the Giant who is watching where they step or move and do not move in a straight pattern nor do they move through the solid body of the other or step on the solid body unless rolling for an attack, on the other is nonsensical. If you freeze everything into a nonrealistic statue game then yes you could play it like that. There are still rules about moving through the ORC space even though I am moving and they are not according to your terms and attacks of opportunity are about me moving but they are not frozen I can attest. If you make it more mechanical rather than in the flow of the game in presenting challenges you could rule it that way. I guess everyone makes their hide and move silent right. Since on there turn there is no movement of opponents or you are not moving when they make their listen checks on you, except their breathing?This is exactly what we had happen twice as I have recalled at least one of them. The party entered a large natural cavern with both stalactites and stalagmites some as tall as 12’. As the party entered they immediately saw the cavern and saw movement near the center but darkness fell over the center of the cavern The Dwarf and ranger waded into the darkness and the wizard wishing to fire a fireball into the darkness about halfway into the cavern. Did he hit a stalagmite? Did he hit one of the two Ogres? Did he hit the Ranger or the dwarf? Or did he hit the square on the grid map I had drawn out (he was metagaming a little here) as he says he should be able to do? Another situation was the last one that just happened. The party found an illusionary wall. The wizard decided to go invisibly behind it and check it out. Just on the inside of the illusionary wall were two Gargoyles with wings that stretched up to the 10’ ceiling as they stood nearly 8’’ tall apiece. Another one was 30’ back beside a large hole that descended downward. The wizard backed out went to the center of the room and told the Cleric that there were Gargoyles behind the wall and then yelled it out to the spread out party as he then said I am hurling a fireball through the wall about 20’ back so that it gets the other one in the back so possibly he won’t escape. Again, does the Fireball explode on the Gargoyles that he cannot see or does it explode 20’ beyond the wall? This was crucial as to whether the alarm would be raised. It is reasons like this that we still have issues with Fireball.</blockquote>

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