D&D 3E/3.5 spell points in 5e and 3e

[CapnZapp]

Hmm. Just realized they changed the spell point costs from d20 to 5th edition.

In 3.5 a spell costs as many spell points as the caster level you need to be to cast it. In other words: 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17.

In 5e a spell costs 2, 3, 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13.

In other words, you are discouraged from spending your points on 1st level spells. At the other end, high level spells are discounted.

I can guess there's a reason for this change (too many cheap Shields? no reason to keep high level spells as costly when you can't cast em more than once anywahy) but I'm interested in any and all discussion around it.

So. Are you are aware of any of the following?
- discussion regarding d20/PF spell points (presumably resulting in a consensus it needs work)
- D&D next playtest commentary
- designer comments in interviews, articles and tweets hinting as to why these changes were made

 

[CapnZapp]

The reason I got thinking about this was the discussion regarding the Wand of Magic Missiles.

The consensus seems to be that yes, it's powerful at early levels (no doubt about it), but it's particularly overwhelming because of its ability to spend all most of its charges at once.

That is: at low levels a level 1 Magic Missile is good but not special. A level 7 Magic Missile, on the other hand, is an insta-win button.

(There's a reason the Starter Set features a variant wand where you can't spend more than three charges at once)

So.

That got me thinking about Spell Points, since I remember how 3E made each additional spell level more expensive (i.e. 1, 3, 5... spell points).

My idea was to have wand charges be spell points (each charge 1 SP), and have the blow-many-charges-at-once thing cost spell points instead. Obviously, the wand needs more charges a day.

That way, shooting 1st level Magic Missiles would look more attractive, I thought.

Imagine my surprise when I realized the 5th edition spell point system doesn't play along with this.

If you use 5e spell points to fuel the wand, it actively encourages you to NOT spend your charges on 1st level uses.

Imagine a Wand of Magic Missiles with 21 spell points instead of 7 charges, with the idea that 2nd level slots is the sweet spot (7x3=21). Use higher slots and you get fewer shots (than the original wand), use 1st level slots and you get more.

But in 5e it doesn't work that way. With 21 spell points, yes you get seven blasts at second level. But you only gain 10 blasts at first, which isn't exactly a sweet deal.


Hmmph.

 

[Li Shenron]

I don't know the reasons.

The new pattern is:

- spells of level 1-2 cost an amount of spell points equal to spell level +1
- spells of level 3-5 cost an amount of spell points equal to spell level +2
- spells of level 6-9 cost an amount of spell points equal to spell level +3

but then the net results depend also on how many spell points per character level the spellcasters get. I assume that the numbers are chosen so that you get about the same number of spells as a regular spellcaster (if you choose to distribute your spell points in such a way).

It would make sense to me that when designing the spell points system, they would try to limit both the highest-level spells (for power reasons) and the lowest-level spells (for complexity reasons). But again, I don't know what was the real reason behind this design...

 

[CapnZapp]

The new pattern is:

To be honest, I think it's the same pattern, except its tweaked

they would try to limit both the highest-level spells (for power reasons)

They have, but not through the sp cost. Instead it's simply (and heavy-handedly) "you can only cast a single spell of each levels 6-9 a day full stop". This means the sp cost is much less relevant.

But again, I don't know

Okay. No prob

 

[Tony Vargas]

- D&D next playtest commentary

Don't recall any spellpoint systems in any of the playtests.

(There's a reason the Starter Set features a variant wand where you can't spend more than three charges at once)

That's how it worked back in the olden days, maximum of 3 charges for 3 missiles per round (when it had 100 charges, mind you).

Imagine a Wand of Magic Missiles with 21 spell points instead of 7 charges, with the idea that 2nd level slots is the sweet spot (7x3=21). Use higher slots and you get fewer shots, use 1st level slots and you get more. Not a bad call-back, either.

 

[CapnZapp]

That's how it worked back in the olden days, maximum of 3 charges for 3 missiles per round (when it had 100 charges, mind you).

You're talking about the AD&D wand now right?

(Because Magic Missile yields three missiles already at lowest level in 5e)

 

[CapnZapp]

It occurs to me every variable conspires against a nice exponential curve here.

I mean, that if a wand deals N average damage at 1st level at a cost of 1 resource (point or charge), and you desire each higher level to yield less and less power per level (because you concentrate on the time dimension), so that, say

2N damage at 2nd level costs 3 resources (for a power to resource ratio of 2/3)
3N damage at 3nd level costs 5 resources (for a power to resource ratio of 3/5)
and so on...

5th edition does not play along.

First off, the RAW wand. It allows you to spend 1-7 charges for a casting of 1st through 7th level (though you will normally limit yourself to 6th level). There's no cost for concentration your attack in time.

Then 5e spell points. They don't really help, since they set such a high base cost:

N damage at 1st level costs 2 resources. But 2N damage at 2nd level costs only 3 resources.

To that we need to add that few 5e spells have a linear damage curve. Magic Missile begins at 3N at 1st level. Fireball begins at 8N at 3rd level.

I can't recall offhand a damage spell whose damage doubles at N+1 level, and triples at N+2 level, but if so, the 5e wand mechanism would be broken for a wand of that spell.

 

[Yaarel]

The unevenness of the 5e psi/spell point system bothers me.

I suspect part of the solution is to split it into two separate pools.

So the highest spell levels 6 thru 9 are handled separately. You could even have a single spell slot that refreshes every *short* rest, for 6 thru 9, and it would almost work out right.

When just dealing with spell levels 1 thru 5, the point system might work out to make more sense.

 

[Yaarel]

A thought experiment. Three separate pools.

Spell levels 1-2: Student tier spells. These cost 1 or 2 points respectively. But Student points cannot be spent to cast a Professional or Master tier spell.

Spell levels 3-5: Professional tier spells. These cost 1, 2, or 3 points respectively. You can augment a Student tier spell to use a Professional tier slot, costing 1, 2, or 3 points. But Professional points cannot be spent to cast a Master tier spell.

Spell levels 6-9: Master tier spells. These cost 1,2,3, or 4 points respectively. You can augment a Student or Professional spell to use a Master tier slot, costing 1,2,3, or 4 points.

 

[Tony Vargas]

You're talking about the AD&D wand now right?

(Because Magic Missile yields three missiles already at lowest level in 5e)

Yes, I am, and yes, I know. And, I might just run it the old way at my table, anyway, including allowing non-casters to make attack rolls with the missiles, because, why not, if it tickles my nostalgia?
(and gives a melee character a different ranged option, not un-like pulling a pistol)