Spell Points, with a twist.

[DogBackward]

I really like the idea of Spell Points, in general, because they fit the more popular fantasy magic idea, and better represent the cool mages we see in fantasy movies andbooks. However, I will admit that they can do strange things to balance, especially the whole Nova concept. And I know that some people actually likeVancian Magic, even if I can't figure out why.

So, I've been trying to work out a way to do spell points that keeps some of the Vancian magic feel, while allowing more flexibility and trying to avoid the Nova effect. I've had an idea, and wanted to run it by you guys.

First, my main problem with Vancian magic is that, while it works well for a mechanical game, it is pretty counter-intuitive, and just doesn't make that much sense as is. So, I tried to set up a way to use Vancian magic, while giving it a new flavor and description that makes more sense. I've come up with two ideas f0or this part.

The first is spirits. The world is full of spirits, invisible and intangible, and probably nonsentient. Though having your summoned spirits talk to you could be interesting... Anyway, the idea is that when a mage "prepares" their spells, they're not doing it in the normal way, but are in fact summoning a spirit of a certain concept, element or idea. It's not a Fireball spell, it's one of the many Spirits of Fire; it's not an Entangle spell, it's a Vine Spirit. You have to lend the spirits some of your own life energy to allow them to cross from the spirit world into the material realm, which is why you have a limited amount of "spells" per day. When you ask or command a spirit to perform its one little trick (the spell itself), they expend this borrowed energy, returning to the spirit realm. And you can have a very flavorful distinction between classes. Clerics don't summon any spirits, they are sent from the higher realms by their god. Druids summon spirits and bargain for their service, while wizards reach out with their power and forcibly bind the spirits to their will, hence the reason arcane magic is less popular and more feared. There would also be new spells that would allow you to see and even attack another person's summoned spirits. Call it a pre-emptive Dispel magic, if you will...

The second is a little more classical, but is still closer to the original Vancian system, and adds a mechanical aspect. You can't just randomly throw spells together, the magical energy must be assembled. The spells themselves take a long time to cast, which is why most mages "cast" their spells in the morning. But doing so actually casts the spell, unless you tie it to a specially prepared object. With carved runes and special dyes and inks, a small object can be prepared to hold the energy of a spell for a time, allowing it to be released later. Only the original caster can release the spell energy. This means that every spell now requires a focus, being the object that the spell is tied to. If you lose this object, you lose the particular spell, which makes for some interesting options in anti-mage scenarios. And also explains why the classical wizard carries a staff; they've got their spells tied into it, and it's large enough that they won't easily lose or misplace it. And explains why they spend so much time and effort making their staff stronger and more powerful; if it's broken or destroyed, their spells for the day are gone. This helps support the idea of the classic robe-wearing, staff-carrying wizard. A cleric could wear a string of prayer beads with a spell on each bead, while a druid would have dozens of small fetishes and charms tied to their outfit, each one with a different spell tied to it.

After that, I wanted to change things to a spell point system that avoided the ability to "go nova" while keeping the flexibility. I haven't worked out all of the minor details yet, but here's the basic idea, and the main reason for this post.

Each spellcaster has it's Spells per Day list changed to Spell Points or Mana. A comparable amount of points to the equivalent psionic class is used; Psion for Wizards, Clerics and Druids, Psychic Warrior for Bards, Divine Mind for Paladins and Rangers, and so on. Spell Points act like Power Points in that one SP equals one Caster Level for the spell being prepares. This includes non-damaging spells as well, and all parameters are based on how many points you spent. This means that if you prepare low-level spells using a low CL, you can have many more spells per day than normal, but they will all be signifigantly weaker.

Finally, to avoid the nova effect, there will be a limit on how many caster levels worth of spells you may have prepared at one time. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of your Caster Level x1/2 +your primary spellcasting score. This will keep you from preparing a bunch of high power spells to nova with, while still allowing enough spell power to get you through a battle or two. The method of spell preparation would have to be tweaked, though... I'm thinking it takes one full minute to enter a trance state that allows you to prepare spells, then one full round per level of the spell to prepare spells. This allows you to refresh your spells prepared between major battles, but keeps you from doing so in battle, and pulling out the perfect spell every time you need it.

From what I can see, this should both allow a rather simple Spell Point system while keeping the basic idea of Vancian spellcasting, as well as preventing the dreaded Nove Mage. It also allows for more flexibiliyt over the day, and will be a great boon to preparation casters who get seriously screwed over because they didn't prepare the right spells. If you find out you prepared the wrong spells, you've still got some spell points left to prepare more useful ones after this battle, which means you won't be as useless the rest of the day as you normally would. I'm still deciding how unbalancing it would be to allow mages to re-prepare spells that have already been prepared. Letting you spend the minute and 3 rounds to switch that Fireball spell to a Fly spell...

Can anybody see any glaring problems with this system? Would it increase or decrease overall power for mages? I'm thinking a slight decrese in pure power, since they can only have so many spells prepared at one time, but a huge increase in overall versatility. I could be wrong, though.

Also, I don't have a tabletop group, and an online RPG would be too slow to test this out well, so if anybody wants to try using this in their game, any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Edit: This isn't meant for spontaneous casters, which I'd probably just leave out anyway.

 

[Arkhandus]

I don't quite grok your mechanical change. Needs clarification/rewording.

 

[DogBackward]

Well, what part isn't clear, specifically?

Basically:
1. Use Power Points from Psionics, but with spells.
2. You still have to prepare your spells in advance, deciding how many points to spend on each spell beforehand. Preparing a set of spells takes one minute (to enter a preparatory trance) plus one round per spell level you're preparing.
3. You can only have a small amount of spells prepared at any one time, as well as having the points per day limit. Once you cast these spells, the points are gone, but you can prepare new spells using your remaining points.

Is that better?

 

[Deekin]

That's Pretty cool.

 

[Randolpho]

Well, what part isn't clear, specifically?

Basically:
1. Use Power Points from Psionics, but with spells.
2. You still have to prepare your spells in advance, deciding how many points to spend on each spell beforehand. Preparing a set of spells takes one minute (to enter a preparatory trance) plus one round per spell level you're preparing.
3. You can only have a small amount of spells prepared at any one time, as well as having the points per day limit. Once you cast these spells, the points are gone, but you can prepare new spells using your remaining points.

Is that better?

That sounds almost exactly like the spell points option in the old 2e Players Option's books.

Which I never bought, so I can't double-check. But IIRC, that's the way they worked.

 

[DogBackward]

Deekin; Thanks.

Randolpho; I never played 2e, I've just always had trouble convincing my players to try spell poitns. I figured something a little closer to the Vancian system would beeasier to follow. I guess that's a good sign, though; at least one other person thought it was a good enough system to publish. Maybe I can my players to try it out... if I ever find any players, that is.

 

[Arkhandus]

Each spellcaster has it's Spells per Day list changed to Spell Points or Mana. A comparable amount of points to the equivalent psionic class is used; Psion for Wizards, Clerics and Druids, Psychic Warrior for Bards, Divine Mind for Paladins and Rangers, and so on.

Meaning, what, a Wizard would have the same number of SP as a Psion of equal level has PP?

Spell Points act like Power Points in that one SP equals one Caster Level for the spell being prepares. This includes non-damaging spells as well, and all parameters are based on how many points you spent. This means that if you prepare low-level spells using a low CL, you can have many more spells per day than normal, but they will all be signifigantly weaker.

This is the part that makes little sense to me. 1 SP = 1 CL? Huh? That has little to do with psionic power points. Power points are related to power level, not caster level, the same way each spell slot is of a particular spell level.

Finally, to avoid the nova effect, there will be a limit on how many caster levels worth of spells you may have prepared at one time. I'm thinking somewhere along the lines of your Caster Level x1/2 +your primary spellcasting score.

Which means what, anyway? Your limit as a 10th-level wizard with 22 Int is 11 in this case; which means what exactly? You could prepare 11 spells of 1st-level, or 2 of 5th-level and 1 of 1st-level? Is that what you mean?

Cuz you're really not clear on this, especially with your earlier line of saying 1 SP = 1 CL and all that. It doesn't make any sense regarding how many spells you prepare or cast of each spell level. Or what the effective caster level is for each? I'm not really sure what you mean by these lines. And I'm still not quite sure where this is leading.

I'm thinking it takes one full minute to enter a trance state that allows you to prepare spells, then one full round per level of the spell to prepare spells. This allows you to refresh your spells prepared between major battles, but keeps you from doing so in battle, and pulling out the perfect spell every time you need it.

This also confuses me as to its exact meaning/use. Specific examples, reasonably explained, are needed.

If you find out you prepared the wrong spells, you've still got some spell points left to prepare more useful ones after this battle, which means you won't be as useless the rest of the day as you normally would.

How does this help if you're screwed by preparing the wrong spells for the battle? If all you've prepared offensively is Fireballs and Scorching Rays, you're screwed if the opponent turns out to be a juvenile red dragon or a pack of fire mephits. If it takes a minute or more to prepare different/additional spells, that isn't going to save you from getting fried.

And I'm confused exactly how this system is supposed to work. Does spending a minute+ to prepare new spells mean your Spell Points are refreshed? Or what? Cuz if not, this seems like a tremendous gimping of the spellcasters. And if it does work like that (spending a minute+ to prepare spells again refreshes SP), then instead it's going to increase their overall power quite drastically on a daily basis (though weakening them mildly or moderately in each individual battle). Especially when it comes to utility spells for use outside combat.

 

[DogBackward]

Meaning, what, a Wizard would have the same number of SP as a Psion of equal level has PP?

Right.

This is the part that makes little sense to me. 1 SP = 1 CL? Huh? That has little to do with psionic power points. Power points are related to power level, not caster level, the same way each spell slot is of a particular spell level.

Actually, Psionics does exactly that, based on Manifester Level. Each PP used is roughly worth one Manifester Level with the augmentations. And while they use Power Level to give the starting PP cost for a power, you'll notice the actual PP cost is the minimum Manifester level required to manifest that power.
But using SP as Caster Level specifically gives more flexibility. A 9th level Wizard could prepare that Fireball at 9 CL, but that leaves him less room for other spells. If he prepares it at 5 CL instead, it'll do less damage, but leaves an extra 4 SP for a different spell. You can either go for a few of high-power spells, or a lot more low-power spells.

Which means what, anyway? Your limit as a 10th-level wizard with 22 Int is 11 in this case; which means what exactly? You could prepare 11 spells of 1st-level, or 2 of 5th-level and 1 of 1st-level? Is that what you mean?

Sorry, that was a typo, actually. That was supposed to be x1 1/2. Should have just said x150%; anyway, your Wizard example would have 21, not 11. What this means is that while your 10th level Wizard with 22 Int would have a total of 118 SP, he could only have 21 Caster Levels worth spells prepared as actual spells at any one time. This means he couldn't prepare 11 10th level Fireballs and just wipe out all opponents in a battle in one go.

Cuz you're really not clear on this, especially with your earlier line of saying 1 SP = 1 CL and all that. It doesn't make any sense regarding how many spells you prepare or cast of each spell level. Or what the effective caster level is for each? I'm not really sure what you mean by these lines. And I'm still not quite sure where this is leading.

The effective caster level for each spell equals the amount of SP you used to prepare it. If you use 5 SP to prepare a Fireball, it's cast at CL 5. If you use 10 SP to prepare a Fireball, it's cast at CL 10.

This also confuses me as to its exact meaning/use. Specific examples, reasonably explained, are needed.

I was actually avoiding a lot of examples and such because I wasn't trying to present a finished system, just posting my basic idea. But, here goes.
Let's use your 10th level Wizard with 22 Int. He has 118 Spell Points, but can only have 21 of them prepared as actual spells at any one time. So, let's say that it's morning, and he's settin out to roust some goblins. He sits down and takes a full minute to go into the trance required for him to be able to see the strands of mana that he'll weave into his spells. Each specific spell he prepares takes one full round per level of the spell. Let's say he prepares the following list;

Fireball, Lvl 3, CL 7
Lightning Bolt, Lvl 3, CL 5
Scorching Ray, Lvl 2, CL 3
Magic Missile, Lvl 1, CL 3
Mage Armor, Lvl 1, CL 2
Detect Secret Doors, Lvl 1, CL 1

He spends a total of 11 rounds actually preparing the spells, 3 rounds each for the Fireball and Lightning Bolt, 2 rounds for the Scorching Ray, and 1 round each for the Magic MIssile, Mage Armor and Detect Secret Doors. He's taken a total of 2 minutes and 6 seconds to prepare his spells.
Notice that the total of CL's equals 21, as well, and he has only 97 SP left for the day.

Now, after he goes through the first few battles, he's out of spells. He's in the middle of the dungeon, so his three allies stand watch around him while he takes a minute to enter his trance and a few more rounds to prepare some more spells. If he prepares the total of 21 CL allowed again, he'll have 76 SP left for the day.

How does this help if you're screwed by preparing the wrong spells for the battle? If all you've prepared offensively is Fireballs and Scorching Rays, you're screwed if the opponent turns out to be a juvenile red dragon or a pack of fire mephits. If it takes a minute or more to prepare different/additional spells, that isn't going to save you from getting fried.

No, you can't switch your spells out in mid-battle, but if that family of white dragons you were chasing down happens to be, in fact, red, you can prepare cold-based spells after this battle. While it's true this won't help you against the current dragon, it would be a big help to be able to remedy your error for the next one. Which is somethign the current system can't do.

And I'm confused exactly how this system is supposed to work. Does spending a minute+ to prepare new spells mean your Spell Points are refreshed? Or what? Cuz if not, this seems like a tremendous gimping of the spellcasters.

No. And this shouldn't really gimp the spellcasters (though I wouldn't be adverse to taht at later levels), since they'll still be able to do just as much in one day. But they won't be able to unleash arcane hell in one single battle. Meaning... hey! The other players will get a chance to mop up what the mages' spells didn't get. A wizard can no longer take an entire encounter out on his own with this system, which in my opinion is a very good thing. It doesn't gimp them, it keeps them from stealing the show every single battle.

Also, note that the CL x150% +Primary bonus is only my first suggestion for the number. If you want your mages to be more powerful for each battle, make it a higher number. CL +Primary bonus x2 makes your 10th level Wizard have 32 available at once, instead of 21.

 

[Arkhandus]

Alright, that clarifies the general stuff that was confusing me with the original description.

Thing is, the way you have it basically makes it pointless to prepare lower-level spells, except for the occasional utility/defense spell; instead of that Scorching Ray and Magic Missile and Detect Secret Doors, they'd have prepared another Fireball or Lightning Bolt at CL7, and prepared the Mage Armor at CL 1 while putting that one caster level worth of extra SP into, say, Shield at CL 1, or improving the first Lightning Bolt's caster level to CL 6.

Then after one or two battles they'd prepare more spells if need be, since they only really have to be prepared to nuke everything in one or two battles between preparations.

Why bother with 1d4+1 or 2d4+2 damage and 4d6 damage, to a single target each time, when you could instead do 7d6 damage in an area and improve one of your other area attacks by 1d6 or so damage?


The psionics system gets around this to some extent by a few factors; 1, augments that are often infinitely scaleable; 2, extremely limited selection of powers known; 3, the fact that a few minor factors remain manifester-level-based rather than power-point-expenditure based. Mainly the limited powers known. A wizard, on the other hand, can learn lots of new spells of the highest level he or she can cast. He doesn't have to worry about choosing to learn Fireball instead of Haste; he can learn both, whereas a psion who learns a new blasting power is giving up on learning one of several other useful powers, when he could just stick with his lower-level blasting powers that are a bit less potent or efficient.

 

[DogBackward]

Magic Missile is an automatic hit for Force damage; while it deals less damage, it has its own benefits. And a Fireball is a minimum CL, and thus minimum SP cost, of 5. Magic Missile is good for manyt hings you can't do with a Fireball. Scorching Ray lets you hit foes that are in melee with your allies, or close by. Or maybe you're in the middle of a flammable area, and don't want to burn to death when a Fireball would set the battlefield on fire (depending on interpretation... or maybe it's flamable exploding barrels). There're tons of reasons to still prepare lower-level spells, since each spell has its own benefits. And yeah, certain spells will be overshadowed by their later counterparts, but that's not really that big a deal, I don't think.

And I like the versatility of mages being allowed to learn many spells. The low-level spells, especially the utility spells but also certain types of attack spells, are still helpful, and knowing a lot of high-level spells isn't that big a deal, since you can still only have so many actually prepared at any one time. Only knowing so many spells makes sense for psionics, since it's an internal ability, but magic is external; why should you only be able to learn a certain number? Does your head suddenly get full"?

Since you still need a spellbook to learn spells (and you might want to implement the same thing for other casters, if you want), and still have to reference it to cast them, that leaves a limitation anyway, based on gold and space.

But really, I'd need someone to actually test it in play before anyone can know how it will actually work. Any takers?