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<blockquote data-quote="ashockney" data-source="post: 4602036" data-attributes="member: 1363">I like the different thoughts on spell resistance on this thread.&nbsp; There are several different versions of &quot;yoinkable&quot; game rules!&nbsp; Cool.I think the objective here is to add some &quot;punch&quot; to monster SR to give it that 1st edition feel.&nbsp; The second objective is to simplify the system, to make it less complex.&nbsp; Finally, I would argue that a quick review of the overall game system requires a quick review of balance considerations related to spellcasters.So, to boil down these combat effects to their underlying broth, what you uncover is that in combat there are two ways to get to damage:&nbsp; overcome damage avoidance, and overcome damage reduction.Damage avoidance is directly related in the game in three forms AC, SR, and an avoidance check.&nbsp; The levels of damage avoidance in the game include: full effect (hit), no effect (no hit).Damage reduction prevents some or all of the damage dealt from an attack.&nbsp; The primary benefit of damage reduction is a saving throw, which typically reduces the damage effect in half.&nbsp; Beyond that, there can be damage reduction in one of many, many forms.&nbsp; This damage reduction creates an entire sub-system that is overly cumbersome.As it relates to damage avoidance, AC is easily manipulated by modifiers that are in the player's control, including tactical considerations.&nbsp; SR is NOT available to players, and is often not easily manipulated by the player.&nbsp; I would say, given this consideration, it would make more sense to make damage avoidance VERY simple as a sub-system.&nbsp; Playing off of Hawken's original theory, I think damage avoidance should simply be:Minor: DA 5 (6 or higher to succeed)Moderate: DA 10 (11 or higher to succeed)Major: DA 15 (16 or higher to succeed)I would also recommend ret-conning all the related &quot;avoidance&quot; effects into this new, simpler subsystem.&nbsp; The damage avoidance rules that can allow a player to avoid damage or an effect from the SRD include:Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Shadowdancer Evasion&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any AoE attackRogue/Monk/Shadowdancer Improved Evasion&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. any AoE attack, half damRogue/Shadowdancer Defensive Roll&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any melee attackRogue/Shadowdancer Slippery Mind&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any enchantment/charmMonk's Diamond Body&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. spellsMonk's Deflect Arrows&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor(Moderate) vs. ranged attacksFeat Deflect Arrows&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. ranged attacksFeat Mounted Combat&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. ONE melee attackCover (Full)&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. AoE attack&nbsp; &nbsp; Concealment&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack rollSpell Sanctuary&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. any attack roll (action redirect)Spell Blur&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any attack rollSpell Mirror Image&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any attack roll (AoE dispels)Spell Invisibility&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any attack rollSpell Entropic Shield&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any ranged attack rollSpell Blink&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any attack roll or AoE attackSpell Improved Invisibility&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any attack rollSpell Fire Shield, Cold Shield&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. fire/cold attackSpell Spell Resistance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spellSpell Spell Turning&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spell + turnSpell Word of Chaos, Shield of Law&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)Spell Holy Aura, Unholy Aura&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets)Item Holy Sword&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spellItem Armor of Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflecting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. ranged attacksItem Armor Light, Moderate, Heavy Fortification&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor/Moderate/Major vs. critical (only)Item Armor Reflecting&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spell + turnItem Armor/Mantle Spell Resistance&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spellItem Ring Counterspelling&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. any ONE spellItem Ring Blinking&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. any attack roll or AOE attackItem Ring Spell Turning&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any spell + turnItem Rod Absorption&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. any spellItem Cloak of Displacement Minor, Major&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack rollItem Gloves of Arrow Snatching&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Minor vs. ranged attack rollItem Ioun Stone Pale Lavender, Lavender, and Green&nbsp; &nbsp; Major vs. any spell (spell limit)Item Scarab of Protection&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any “necromancy” spellAction Counterspelling&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any ONE spellAction Parry&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Moderate vs. any ONE melee actionWhat is interesting about these effects is that they stack layers upon layers of effects and abilities on top of one another.&nbsp; In general, they seem to build around the concept that you can either quickly and easily “avoid” an attack by alertly jumping out of the way, through distraction, through the effective tactical use of cover, or through the sheer ability to ignore/counter/dispel/turn an effect.&nbsp; I would argue that this would make an effective subsystem for the use of other feat/skill builds such as parrying melee attacks.There is a building scale of relevance that involves the following options:1)&nbsp; &nbsp; Action is not negated, but damage is avoided2)&nbsp; &nbsp; Action is negated when damage is avoided with tactics (partial damage possible)3)&nbsp; &nbsp; Action is negated when damage is avoided by ignoring 4)&nbsp; &nbsp; Action is negated when damage is countered or dispelled5)&nbsp; &nbsp; Action is negated when damage is turnedThere are levels that this effect can be applied:Specific to the type of damage avoided:Limited - one attack, one type of attack, one type of effect (school)Broad - all spells, all ranged attacks, all melee attacksUnlimited - all spells and ranged attacks, and melee attacks (does this exist?)Specific to the effectiveness of damage avoided:MinorModerateMajorI think this new subsystem would streamline play, while accomplishing the goal of providing some PUNCH to those monster SR’s (1st ed style).&nbsp; Having said that, this would open up the “design” space for use within the SRD for a number of other interesting effects/abilities that could be used given consideration to skills/feats/class abilities.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="ashockney, post: 4602036, member: 1363"] I like the different thoughts on spell resistance on this thread. There are several different versions of "yoinkable" game rules! Cool. I think the objective here is to add some "punch" to monster SR to give it that 1st edition feel. The second objective is to simplify the system, to make it less complex. Finally, I would argue that a quick review of the overall game system requires a quick review of balance considerations related to spellcasters. So, to boil down these combat effects to their underlying broth, what you uncover is that in combat there are two ways to get to damage: overcome damage avoidance, and overcome damage reduction. Damage avoidance is directly related in the game in three forms AC, SR, and an avoidance check. The levels of damage avoidance in the game include: full effect (hit), no effect (no hit). Damage reduction prevents some or all of the damage dealt from an attack. The primary benefit of damage reduction is a saving throw, which typically reduces the damage effect in half. Beyond that, there can be damage reduction in one of many, many forms. This damage reduction creates an entire sub-system that is overly cumbersome. As it relates to damage avoidance, AC is easily manipulated by modifiers that are in the player's control, including tactical considerations. SR is NOT available to players, and is often not easily manipulated by the player. I would say, given this consideration, it would make more sense to make damage avoidance VERY simple as a sub-system. Playing off of Hawken's original theory, I think damage avoidance should simply be: Minor: DA 5 (6 or higher to succeed) Moderate: DA 10 (11 or higher to succeed) Major: DA 15 (16 or higher to succeed) I would also recommend ret-conning all the related "avoidance" effects into this new, simpler subsystem. The damage avoidance rules that can allow a player to avoid damage or an effect from the SRD include: Rogue/Monk/Ranger/Shadowdancer Evasion Moderate vs. any AoE attack Rogue/Monk/Shadowdancer Improved Evasion Major vs. any AoE attack, half dam Rogue/Shadowdancer Defensive Roll Moderate vs. any melee attack Rogue/Shadowdancer Slippery Mind Moderate vs. any enchantment/charm Monk's Diamond Body Moderate vs. spells Monk's Deflect Arrows Minor(Moderate) vs. ranged attacks Feat Deflect Arrows Minor vs. ranged attacks Feat Mounted Combat Moderate vs. ONE melee attack Cover (Full) Major vs. AoE attack Concealment Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll Spell Sanctuary Major vs. any attack roll (action redirect) Spell Blur Minor vs. any attack roll Spell Mirror Image Minor vs. any attack roll (AoE dispels) Spell Invisibility Minor vs. any attack roll Spell Entropic Shield Minor vs. any ranged attack roll Spell Blink Minor vs. any attack roll or AoE attack Spell Improved Invisibility Moderate vs. any attack roll Spell Fire Shield, Cold Shield Major vs. fire/cold attack Spell Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell Spell Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn Spell Word of Chaos, Shield of Law Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets) Spell Holy Aura, Unholy Aura Moderate vs. any spell (multiple targets) Item Holy Sword Moderate vs. any spell Item Armor of Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflecting Minor vs. ranged attacks Item Armor Light, Moderate, Heavy Fortification Minor/Moderate/Major vs. critical (only) Item Armor Reflecting Moderate vs. any spell + turn Item Armor/Mantle Spell Resistance Moderate vs. any spell Item Ring Counterspelling Major vs. any ONE spell Item Ring Blinking Minor vs. any attack roll or AOE attack Item Ring Spell Turning Moderate vs. any spell + turn Item Rod Absorption Major vs. any spell Item Cloak of Displacement Minor, Major Minor (Moderate) vs. any attack roll Item Gloves of Arrow Snatching Minor vs. ranged attack roll Item Ioun Stone Pale Lavender, Lavender, and Green Major vs. any spell (spell limit) Item Scarab of Protection Moderate vs. any “necromancy” spell Action Counterspelling Moderate vs. any ONE spell Action Parry Moderate vs. any ONE melee action What is interesting about these effects is that they stack layers upon layers of effects and abilities on top of one another. In general, they seem to build around the concept that you can either quickly and easily “avoid” an attack by alertly jumping out of the way, through distraction, through the effective tactical use of cover, or through the sheer ability to ignore/counter/dispel/turn an effect. I would argue that this would make an effective subsystem for the use of other feat/skill builds such as parrying melee attacks. There is a building scale of relevance that involves the following options: 1) Action is not negated, but damage is avoided 2) Action is negated when damage is avoided with tactics (partial damage possible) 3) Action is negated when damage is avoided by ignoring 4) Action is negated when damage is countered or dispelled 5) Action is negated when damage is turned There are levels that this effect can be applied: Specific to the type of damage avoided: Limited - one attack, one type of attack, one type of effect (school) Broad - all spells, all ranged attacks, all melee attacks Unlimited - all spells and ranged attacks, and melee attacks (does this exist?) Specific to the effectiveness of damage avoided: Minor Moderate Major I think this new subsystem would streamline play, while accomplishing the goal of providing some PUNCH to those monster SR’s (1st ed style). Having said that, this would open up the “design” space for use within the SRD for a number of other interesting effects/abilities that could be used given consideration to skills/feats/class abilities. [/QUOTE]

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