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<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1793514" data-attributes="member: 3146">Power Attack is another area where using NWN as your base rather than the P&amp;P rules is likely to give a misleading answer. NWN Power Attack is always 5 points. 5 points is rarely the optimum amount to power attack. In my analyses above, you'll notice that 5 shows up only three times, three shows up once, and the rest of the numbers are above 5.We should be able to agree that a higher damage bonus helps the falchion wielder in general. (If damage=dice+x+extra dice, then the higher x is, the better the falchion will do relative to the greatsword--all other things being equal). Power Attack makes it easier to get a higher damage bonus. Therefore, power attack should help the falchion wielder.Expressing this in mathematical terms: greatsword damage= %hit(2d6+x)+%crit(%hit(2d6+x)) and falchion damage=%hit(2d6+x)+%crit(%hit(2d4+x))With one threat range expansion (keen or imp crit), that works out to:greatsword damage= %hit(7+x)+.2(%hit(7+x)) and falchion damage=%hit(5+x)+.3(%hit(5+x))Factored out, where h=%hit that works out to:7h+xh+.14h+.2xh (Greatsword)and5h+xh+.21h+.3xh (falchion)That adds up to:7.14h+1.2(xh) (Greatsword)and5.21h+1.3(xh) (Falchion)Factoring h out, it turns out that:Greatsword damage/h=7.14+1.2xFalchion damage/h=5.21+1.3xTherefore, falchion damage will (in general) be greater than greatsword damage where:5.21+1.3x &gt; 7.14 +1.2xThat will be true whenever x &gt; 19 (assuming, of course, the same attack bonus).Since this comparison starts the greatsword and falchion wielder out at +19 (3.0-- +15 str, +2 enhancement, +2 WS) or +21 (3.5--+15 str, +2 enh, +4 GWS), the falchion wielder is reliably ahead of the greatsword wielder (though not by a lot since the base number is very close to 19). A lower level comparison would be favor the greatsword wielder more and might well show situations where the falchion wielder's optimal power attack is greater than the greatsword wielder's. In theory, that should occur whenever (h-.05)(5.21+1.3(x+2)) &gt; h(7.14 +1.2x)5.21h+1.3xh+2.6h-.2605h-.065h-.13xh &gt; h(7.14 +1.2x)7.485h+1.17xh &gt; 7.14h+1.2xhThat works out to any time x &lt; 12 (and all threats are hits), the falchion wielder can be better off than the greatsword wielder by power attacking for one point. Edit--I think I multiplied (h-.05) incorrectly in the above example. I've left my math so that someone with a better memory of high school can tell me where I went wrong.The flipside which you seem to be focussing on is that power attack hurts the falchion wielder if it leads to some of his attacks that would threaten not even hitting. So, let's look at that analysis.If we take our target level as 15 and use all of the same assumptions we have been using, our fighters should have an attack bonus of +29/+24/+19 in their 3.5 incarnations. The falchion will have a nonstacking threat range of 15-20 and a stacking threat range of 12-20. So, in order to lose any threats because of power attack, the falchion has to roll a 12 (or a 15), add his lowest attack to it, and miss after subtracting power attack. That should look like this: AC=19+threat range-power attack. Therefore, AC+power attack=19+threat range.Therefore AC+power attack=31 (stacking) or 34 (non-stacking).Looking up at my optimal power attack numbers (which, keep in mind are for a +20 BAB character with a +5 weapon), we can see that, even with 5 more points of BAB and 3 more points of enhancement, optimal power attack+AC just barely exceeds power attack+AC at AC 30 without stacking and only slightly exceeds it when stacking. Running the numbers at BAB 15 with a +2 enhancement bonus:<a href="http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&amp;dexterity=10&amp;BAB=15&amp;btohit=0&amp;btodam=0&amp;dr=0&amp;w1dmg=5&amp;w1rng=3&amp;w1mult=2&amp;w1enh=2&amp;w1bonus=0&amp;w1keen=true&amp;pw1=&amp;w2dmg=4.5&amp;w2rng=2&amp;w2mult=2&amp;w2enh=0&amp;w2bonus=0&amp;pw2=&amp;weaponwield=twohanded&amp;pa=true&amp;patype=3.5&amp;hastetype=3.0&amp;focusw1=true&amp;gfocusw1=true&amp;specw1=true&amp;impcritw1=true&amp;sneakattack=0d6&amp;charge_mult=1&amp;Ilove=Macy&amp;button1=CALCULATE" target="_blank">http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&amp;dexterity=10&amp;BAB=15&amp;btohit=0&amp;btodam=0&amp;dr=0&amp;w1dmg=5&amp;w1rng=3&amp;w1mult=2&amp;w1enh=2&amp;w1bonus=0&amp;w1keen=true&amp;pw1=&amp;w2dmg=4.5&amp;w2rng=2&amp;w2mult=2&amp;w2enh=0&amp;w2bonus=0&amp;pw2=&amp;weaponwield=twohanded&amp;pa=true&amp;patype=3.5&amp;hastetype=3.0&amp;focusw1=true&amp;gfocusw1=true&amp;specw1=true&amp;impcritw1=true&amp;sneakattack=0d6&amp;charge_mult=1&amp;Ilove=Macy&amp;button1=CALCULATE</a><a href="http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&amp;dexterity=10&amp;BAB=15&amp;btohit=0&amp;btodam=0&amp;dr=0&amp;w1dmg=5&amp;w1rng=3&amp;w1mult=2&amp;w1enh=2&amp;w1bonus=0&amp;pw1=&amp;w2dmg=4.5&amp;w2rng=2&amp;w2mult=2&amp;w2enh=0&amp;w2bonus=0&amp;pw2=&amp;weaponwield=twohanded&amp;pa=true&amp;patype=3.5&amp;hastetype=3.0&amp;focusw1=true&amp;gfocusw1=true&amp;specw1=true&amp;impcritw1=true&amp;sneakattack=0d6&amp;charge_mult=1&amp;Ilove=Macy&amp;button1=CALCULATE" target="_blank">http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&amp;dexterity=10&amp;BAB=15&amp;btohit=0&amp;btodam=0&amp;dr=0&amp;w1dmg=5&amp;w1rng=3&amp;w1mult=2&amp;w1enh=2&amp;w1bonus=0&amp;pw1=&amp;w2dmg=4.5&amp;w2rng=2&amp;w2mult=2&amp;w2enh=0&amp;w2bonus=0&amp;pw2=&amp;weaponwield=twohanded&amp;pa=true&amp;patype=3.5&amp;hastetype=3.0&amp;focusw1=true&amp;gfocusw1=true&amp;specw1=true&amp;impcritw1=true&amp;sneakattack=0d6&amp;charge_mult=1&amp;Ilove=Macy&amp;button1=CALCULATE</a>you will notice that optimal power attack+AC never seems to exceed 31. So, with optimal power attack as calculated by this page, the falchion wielder will never have any of his threats miss unless he reaches a number where needs a 20 to hit anyway. (well, actually, the page's calculations seem to start when he needs a 17 to hit on his primary attack; I assume the chance of dealing lots of extra damage on the other two attacks (and the primary attack too) makes up for missing more often on the primary attack).</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1793514, member: 3146"] Power Attack is another area where using NWN as your base rather than the P&P rules is likely to give a misleading answer. NWN Power Attack is always 5 points. 5 points is rarely the optimum amount to power attack. In my analyses above, you'll notice that 5 shows up only three times, three shows up once, and the rest of the numbers are above 5. We should be able to agree that a higher damage bonus helps the falchion wielder in general. (If damage=dice+x+extra dice, then the higher x is, the better the falchion will do relative to the greatsword--all other things being equal). Power Attack makes it easier to get a higher damage bonus. Therefore, power attack should help the falchion wielder. Expressing this in mathematical terms: greatsword damage= %hit(2d6+x)+%crit(%hit(2d6+x)) and falchion damage=%hit(2d6+x)+%crit(%hit(2d4+x)) With one threat range expansion (keen or imp crit), that works out to: greatsword damage= %hit(7+x)+.2(%hit(7+x)) and falchion damage=%hit(5+x)+.3(%hit(5+x)) Factored out, where h=%hit that works out to: 7h+xh+.14h+.2xh (Greatsword) and 5h+xh+.21h+.3xh (falchion) That adds up to: 7.14h+1.2(xh) (Greatsword) and 5.21h+1.3(xh) (Falchion) Factoring h out, it turns out that: Greatsword damage/h=7.14+1.2x Falchion damage/h=5.21+1.3x Therefore, falchion damage will (in general) be greater than greatsword damage where: 5.21+1.3x > 7.14 +1.2x That will be true whenever x > 19 (assuming, of course, the same attack bonus). Since this comparison starts the greatsword and falchion wielder out at +19 (3.0-- +15 str, +2 enhancement, +2 WS) or +21 (3.5--+15 str, +2 enh, +4 GWS), the falchion wielder is reliably ahead of the greatsword wielder (though not by a lot since the base number is very close to 19). A lower level comparison would be favor the greatsword wielder more and might well show situations where the falchion wielder's optimal power attack is greater than the greatsword wielder's. In theory, that should occur whenever (h-.05)(5.21+1.3(x+2)) > h(7.14 +1.2x) 5.21h+1.3xh+2.6h-.2605h-.065h-.13xh > h(7.14 +1.2x) 7.485h+1.17xh > 7.14h+1.2xh That works out to any time x < 12 (and all threats are hits), the falchion wielder can be better off than the greatsword wielder by power attacking for one point. [i] Edit--I think I multiplied (h-.05) incorrectly in the above example. I've left my math so that someone with a better memory of high school can tell me where I went wrong.[/i] The flipside which you seem to be focussing on is that power attack hurts the falchion wielder if it leads to some of his attacks that would threaten not even hitting. So, let's look at that analysis. If we take our target level as 15 and use all of the same assumptions we have been using, our fighters should have an attack bonus of +29/+24/+19 in their 3.5 incarnations. The falchion will have a nonstacking threat range of 15-20 and a stacking threat range of 12-20. So, in order to lose any threats because of power attack, the falchion has to roll a 12 (or a 15), add his lowest attack to it, and miss after subtracting power attack. That should look like this: AC=19+threat range-power attack. Therefore, AC+power attack=19+threat range. Therefore AC+power attack=31 (stacking) or 34 (non-stacking). Looking up at my optimal power attack numbers (which, keep in mind are for a +20 BAB character with a +5 weapon), we can see that, even with 5 more points of BAB and 3 more points of enhancement, optimal power attack+AC just barely exceeds power attack+AC at AC 30 without stacking and only slightly exceeds it when stacking. Running the numbers at BAB 15 with a +2 enhancement bonus: [url]http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&dexterity=10&BAB=15&btohit=0&btodam=0&dr=0&w1dmg=5&w1rng=3&w1mult=2&w1enh=2&w1bonus=0&w1keen=true&pw1=&w2dmg=4.5&w2rng=2&w2mult=2&w2enh=0&w2bonus=0&pw2=&weaponwield=twohanded&pa=true&patype=3.5&hastetype=3.0&focusw1=true&gfocusw1=true&specw1=true&impcritw1=true&sneakattack=0d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE[/url] [url]http://www.distanceeducationconsultants.com/ddcalc.php?strength=30&dexterity=10&BAB=15&btohit=0&btodam=0&dr=0&w1dmg=5&w1rng=3&w1mult=2&w1enh=2&w1bonus=0&pw1=&w2dmg=4.5&w2rng=2&w2mult=2&w2enh=0&w2bonus=0&pw2=&weaponwield=twohanded&pa=true&patype=3.5&hastetype=3.0&focusw1=true&gfocusw1=true&specw1=true&impcritw1=true&sneakattack=0d6&charge_mult=1&Ilove=Macy&button1=CALCULATE[/url] you will notice that optimal power attack+AC never seems to exceed 31. So, with optimal power attack as calculated by this page, the falchion wielder will never have any of his threats miss unless he reaches a number where needs a 20 to hit anyway. (well, actually, the page's calculations seem to start when he needs a 17 to hit on his primary attack; I assume the chance of dealing lots of extra damage on the other two attacks (and the primary attack too) makes up for missing more often on the primary attack). [/QUOTE]

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