Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
White Dwarf Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Nest
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
EN Publishing
Twitter
BlueSky
Facebook
Instagram
EN World
BlueSky
YouTube
Facebook
Twitter
Twitch
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
Spell/Rule Changes from 3.0 to 3.5 -- How did we survive 3.0?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1796091" data-attributes="member: 3146"><p>That's news to me. My fighter/wizard kills monsters and lets the bards take their names. Well, I suppose that's mere anecdote.</p><p></p><p>To be more specific, in the 3.0-3.5 transition, fighter/wizards lost:</p><p>-The ability to stack Shield with a shield</p><p>-The ability to use haste to cast spells and attack every round</p><p>-The ability to pump their AC with Haste</p><p>-Greater Magic Weapon isn't as good anymore</p><p>-Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc. as useful spells</p><p>-Polymorph Self lasting a decent amount of time</p><p>-The ability to use Tenser's Transformation to get better than a 1/1 BAB.</p><p></p><p>In the 3.0-3.5 transition, they gained:</p><p>-A useful enlarge person spell</p><p>-2/1 power attack makes two-handed Power attack+True Strike more advantageous.</p><p>-Alter Self gives up to a +6 natural armor bonus</p><p>-Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray as premier 1st and 2nd level spells that benefit from higher BAB</p><p>-A boost to feats that make use of their intelligence (at least for pre-reqs): Improved Trip and Improved Disarm</p><p>-False Life as a core spell</p><p>-Heroism</p><p>-Greater Heroism</p><p>-Overland Flight</p><p>-<strong><em>Eldritch Knight</em></strong> That's the really big one. No fighter/wizard need sacrifice more than 4 points of BAB and 2-3 caster levels. A 3.0 fighter/wizard had to figure out some way to take Sacred Exorcist levels if he wanted to keep a decent BAB or drop his caster level through the floor.</p><p></p><p>in 3.5 expansion books, they also added:</p><p>-Fires of Purity</p><p>-Arcane Strike</p><p>-A worthwhile Spellsword class</p><p></p><p>The fighter/mage archetype may not be what it was in 2e (though I think it actually comes pretty darn close now) but, on balance, I think it's a long way ahead of where it was in 3.0</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No question there. They lost a lot of their premiere spells:</p><p>The statbuffs got nerfed into non-existence</p><p>Fly got its duration slashed.</p><p>Greater Magic Weapon got nerfed.</p><p>Haste was nerfed.</p><p>Polymorph Self got it's duration slashed.</p><p>Baleful Polymorph got bumped to 5th level.</p><p>Disintegrate got a save attached.</p><p>Tenser's Transformation got nerfed (no longer can it give a fighter/mage or dragon better than a 1/1 BAB)</p><p>Teleport, etc got shifted to Conjuration.</p><p></p><p>Getting Enlarge Person made worthwhile and Mass Enlarge Person added, and Alter Self made into a natural armor buff doesn't even come close to making up for all that. (I'm not really sure a transmuter would be a viable specialist class anymore).</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Conjuration got some--the teleport spells, Augment Summoning, and Glitterdust losing its SR. OTOH, it lost all the power words and the change to druids (spontaneous summons and a better summon list) combined with nerfing the best monsters on the summon monster list really hurt conjurers.</p><p></p><p>Enchantment picked up the power words, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Heroism, Greater Heroism, and Daze Monster, but I'm not certain that makes up for nerfing some of its signature spells: Hold Person and Hold Monster and making Dominate Person obvious (the sense motive to notice it is very easy now even if it is much harder to twist the orders).</p><p></p><p>Necromancy strikes me as the school that got beefed the most.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>A lot of the schools DO seem to be balanced. However, I'm pretty sure that Abjuration is no longer worth specializing in. It didn't really pick up any good spells, one of its best spells (shield) got nerfed, and now it costs two good schools to specialize in it rather than just one good school or two marginal schools.</p><p></p><p>I'd be pretty hesitant to specialize in Transmutation too after the nerf but I suspect it could be made to work.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Elder-Basilisk, post: 1796091, member: 3146"] That's news to me. My fighter/wizard kills monsters and lets the bards take their names. Well, I suppose that's mere anecdote. To be more specific, in the 3.0-3.5 transition, fighter/wizards lost: -The ability to stack Shield with a shield -The ability to use haste to cast spells and attack every round -The ability to pump their AC with Haste -Greater Magic Weapon isn't as good anymore -Bull's Strength, Cat's Grace, etc. as useful spells -Polymorph Self lasting a decent amount of time -The ability to use Tenser's Transformation to get better than a 1/1 BAB. In the 3.0-3.5 transition, they gained: -A useful enlarge person spell -2/1 power attack makes two-handed Power attack+True Strike more advantageous. -Alter Self gives up to a +6 natural armor bonus -Ray of Enfeeblement and Scorching Ray as premier 1st and 2nd level spells that benefit from higher BAB -A boost to feats that make use of their intelligence (at least for pre-reqs): Improved Trip and Improved Disarm -False Life as a core spell -Heroism -Greater Heroism -Overland Flight -[b][i]Eldritch Knight[/i][/b][i][/i] That's the really big one. No fighter/wizard need sacrifice more than 4 points of BAB and 2-3 caster levels. A 3.0 fighter/wizard had to figure out some way to take Sacred Exorcist levels if he wanted to keep a decent BAB or drop his caster level through the floor. in 3.5 expansion books, they also added: -Fires of Purity -Arcane Strike -A worthwhile Spellsword class The fighter/mage archetype may not be what it was in 2e (though I think it actually comes pretty darn close now) but, on balance, I think it's a long way ahead of where it was in 3.0 No question there. They lost a lot of their premiere spells: The statbuffs got nerfed into non-existence Fly got its duration slashed. Greater Magic Weapon got nerfed. Haste was nerfed. Polymorph Self got it's duration slashed. Baleful Polymorph got bumped to 5th level. Disintegrate got a save attached. Tenser's Transformation got nerfed (no longer can it give a fighter/mage or dragon better than a 1/1 BAB) Teleport, etc got shifted to Conjuration. Getting Enlarge Person made worthwhile and Mass Enlarge Person added, and Alter Self made into a natural armor buff doesn't even come close to making up for all that. (I'm not really sure a transmuter would be a viable specialist class anymore). Conjuration got some--the teleport spells, Augment Summoning, and Glitterdust losing its SR. OTOH, it lost all the power words and the change to druids (spontaneous summons and a better summon list) combined with nerfing the best monsters on the summon monster list really hurt conjurers. Enchantment picked up the power words, Tasha's Hideous Laughter, Touch of Idiocy, Heroism, Greater Heroism, and Daze Monster, but I'm not certain that makes up for nerfing some of its signature spells: Hold Person and Hold Monster and making Dominate Person obvious (the sense motive to notice it is very easy now even if it is much harder to twist the orders). Necromancy strikes me as the school that got beefed the most. A lot of the schools DO seem to be balanced. However, I'm pretty sure that Abjuration is no longer worth specializing in. It didn't really pick up any good spells, one of its best spells (shield) got nerfed, and now it costs two good schools to specialize in it rather than just one good school or two marginal schools. I'd be pretty hesitant to specialize in Transmutation too after the nerf but I suspect it could be made to work. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
D&D Older Editions
Spell/Rule Changes from 3.0 to 3.5 -- How did we survive 3.0?
Top