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<blockquote data-quote="Spatzimaus" data-source="post: 631645" data-attributes="member: 3051">Originally posted by LokiDR You had to take metamagic/item creation.&nbsp; This means you can't take feats like great spell focus, spellcasting prodidgy, or penitration untill later.Human Wizard.&nbsp; At first level he has three Feats: one normal one, one bonus one for Human, and Scribe Scroll as a Wizard.&nbsp; Get Spell Focus: Evocation, and Spellcasting Prodigy.&nbsp; At 3, get Empower Spell (cuz EVERYONE loves bigger Fireballs)&nbsp; At level 5, take any metamagic or item creation Feat.&nbsp; At level 6, get Skill Focus, and at level 7 you'll have 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills.&nbsp; Entry at level 8 (Wizard 7/Loremaster 1).&nbsp; And, other than Skill Focus, every single Feat listed was one you'd already have.&nbsp; So, for the cost of one useless Feat, you can still enter Loremaster at the earliest possible time AND still have other useful Feats (Spell Focus and Spellcasting Prodigy)It's just that &quot;three metamagic or item creation Feats&quot; means nothing when your class already will have two by level 5, automatically, and these are Feats people already WANT to take.Also, given scribing times/costs, getting the divination spells might be annoying.Not really.&nbsp; There are a good number of low-level divinations that people want (See Invisibility, Darkvision, etc.), especially if you include Tome&amp;Blood and other sources.&nbsp; As for the &quot;one of level 3 or higher&quot;, practically every Wizard gets Scry at some point.What do you get? languages, bardic BS, identifying items, and minor bonuses to some stats.&nbsp; You aren't much of an evoker.But you aren't any LESS of an Evoker than someone who didn't take the class.&nbsp; All it cost you was one Feat beforehand (Skill Focus), and sacrificing the two bonus metamagic/item Feats you'd get during the class; which, as you pointed out earlier, aren't that great, especially since you'll already have three.In exchange, you get:Better skill list, more skill points, a Bardic Knowledge equivalent, and FIVE secrets (starting at half-Feat equivalent and working up to full Feat each), plus two componentless spells.&nbsp; Oh, and two free languages (yawn).&nbsp; If we just counted the Secrets as half-Feats (except for the one that says &quot;gain a free Feat&quot;, which everyone takes), that's three Feats right there, which nicely counteracts the three you lost by taking the PrC.You become a stronger caster, without sacrificing any part of your primary role.&nbsp; To me, that's not balanced, because it means that anyone who chooses NOT to take a PrC is losing in relative power.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Spatzimaus, post: 631645, member: 3051"] [i]Originally posted by LokiDR [/i] [B]You had to take metamagic/item creation. This means you can't take feats like great spell focus, spellcasting prodidgy, or penitration untill later.[/B] Human Wizard. At first level he has three Feats: one normal one, one bonus one for Human, and Scribe Scroll as a Wizard. Get Spell Focus: Evocation, and Spellcasting Prodigy. At 3, get Empower Spell (cuz EVERYONE loves bigger Fireballs) At level 5, take any metamagic or item creation Feat. At level 6, get Skill Focus, and at level 7 you'll have 10 ranks in two Knowledge skills. Entry at level 8 (Wizard 7/Loremaster 1). And, other than Skill Focus, every single Feat listed was one you'd already have. So, for the cost of one useless Feat, you can still enter Loremaster at the earliest possible time AND still have other useful Feats (Spell Focus and Spellcasting Prodigy) It's just that "three metamagic or item creation Feats" means nothing when your class already will have two by level 5, automatically, and these are Feats people already WANT to take. [B]Also, given scribing times/costs, getting the divination spells might be annoying.[/B] Not really. There are a good number of low-level divinations that people want (See Invisibility, Darkvision, etc.), especially if you include Tome&Blood and other sources. As for the "one of level 3 or higher", practically every Wizard gets Scry at some point. [B]What do you get? languages, bardic BS, identifying items, and minor bonuses to some stats. You aren't much of an evoker.[/B] But you aren't any LESS of an Evoker than someone who didn't take the class. All it cost you was one Feat beforehand (Skill Focus), and sacrificing the two bonus metamagic/item Feats you'd get during the class; which, as you pointed out earlier, aren't that great, especially since you'll already have three. In exchange, you get: Better skill list, more skill points, a Bardic Knowledge equivalent, and FIVE secrets (starting at half-Feat equivalent and working up to full Feat each), plus two componentless spells. Oh, and two free languages (yawn). If we just counted the Secrets as half-Feats (except for the one that says "gain a free Feat", which everyone takes), that's three Feats right there, which nicely counteracts the three you lost by taking the PrC. You become a stronger caster, without sacrificing any part of your primary role. To me, that's not balanced, because it means that anyone who chooses NOT to take a PrC is losing in relative power. [/QUOTE]

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