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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7140336" data-attributes="member: 12731">Heh - you utterly missed my point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />The point wasn't to reinforce some notion warriors are weak. The point was that my players would never pick weak choices, and, in 5e, they pick warriors. Which is pretty much the complete opposite point <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />This might have described 3E Fighters well, but certainly not 5E Fighters.Which is to repeat my take - the issue of the thread, it's pretty much fixed. Sure very high level wizards still do more stuff than a fighter, but it's not even close to the ridiculous differences of past editions.In my experience 5E caps characters to weak tier 2's, while most if not all classes are capable of at least weak tier 3 builds. (That you can still build tier 6 characters is a given, and not really worth discussing) In other words, since even the &quot;dumb fighter&quot; can be built to make pretty much every skill check in the game, I can't say he's &quot;often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise&quot; which is what tier 4 requires. Sure, he can't Plane Shift or Stride through Trees or whatever, but that's not what we're talking about here. 5E simply features very little of the scenes and challenges where you feel truly outclassed by other party members, regardless of class.And that is a very good thing <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7140336, member: 12731"] Heh - you utterly missed my point :) The point wasn't to reinforce some notion warriors are weak. The point was that my players would never pick weak choices, and, in 5e, they pick warriors. Which is pretty much the complete opposite point :) This might have described 3E Fighters well, but certainly not 5E Fighters. Which is to repeat my take - the issue of the thread, it's pretty much fixed. Sure very high level wizards still do more stuff than a fighter, but it's not even close to the ridiculous differences of past editions. In my experience 5E caps characters to weak tier 2's, while most if not all classes are capable of at least weak tier 3 builds. (That you can still build tier 6 characters is a given, and not really worth discussing) In other words, since even the "dumb fighter" can be built to make pretty much every skill check in the game, I can't say he's "often useless when encounters require other areas of expertise" which is what tier 4 requires. Sure, he can't Plane Shift or Stride through Trees or whatever, but that's not what we're talking about here. 5E simply features very little of the scenes and challenges where you feel truly outclassed by other party members, regardless of class. And that is a very good thing :) [/QUOTE]

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