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<blockquote data-quote="Tony Vargas" data-source="post: 7623407" data-attributes="member: 996"><p>And you play D&D. </p><p>My condolences.</p><p></p><p> That'd be a /fair/ game. Those options may still be imbalanced, players of any skill which just ignore the inferior ones.</p><p> If it is, it'll be pointed out that its "Not D&D" and "lacks the classic D&D feel." So, how much "an RPG /like/ D&D can be balanced..." eh... debatable. </p><p></p><p> Hyperbolic enough, that if this had been Gleemax in 2005 you'd've set me off again... ;| </p><p></p><p>...oh, what the heck: No, the Animal Companion of a 1st level 3.x Druid does not compare to a 1st level 3e Fighter. The fighter's hps & AC will be higher, he can use ranged/reach weapons, and hiss feats will give him** advantages in combat that the animal can't begin to match. Sure, the "Tier 5" Fighter is /profoundly/ inferior to the "Tier 1" Druid & Companion considered together, and doesn't exactly stack up well to the Druid by herself**. </p><p>But he's better than the darn Animal.</p><p>(...sorry, old rant)</p><p></p><p>"Samey?" No, just no, dems fight'n words. You sucked me back into the Fighter SUX rant, that was enough.</p><p></p><p>But, yeah, what did I just say, above? Not feeling like D&D? That's what balance feels like, because that feel of D&D in this context /is/ the imbalance. </p><p></p><p>5e is not as utterly, systematically, intentionally*, imbalanced as 3.5: there are arguably no Tier 6 classes in 5e (that may not sound like much of an accomplishment, but it's a sign of solid design to not just outright screw up a class that bad, even the classes 5e had terrible trouble with, like the Ranger, aren't Tier 6 - and, 5e's major accomplishments are in other areas, and not to be discounted, indeed, balance is trivial by comparison, even a negative). </p><p>There are Tier 1-4, for sure, and some sub-classes, considered on their own, would be lucky to be counted in Tier 5. Also, 5e is top-heavy, that way. The Druid, Cleric, & Wizard are joined in Tier 1 by the Bard (quite the leap) at the very least, and the Paladin & Warlock have also clawed their way up substantially, though whether both have joined the Sorcerer in Tier 2 or one or the other has surpassed it is debatable (or, if, indeed, the Paladin is only Tier 3 in spite of its sheer power). The fighter is an amusing case, with each sub-class arguably in a different Tier: the BM, in the Zenhtarim-variant Fighter's coveted Tier 4 position, the EK possibly rising to Tier 3, and the Champion languishing in Tier 5.</p><p></p><p> Some kind of Edition Cold War where we say what's so awful about every ed in ways sure to annoy the single-ed-fans out there? </p><p> I see some potential issues, there. First of all, that bonus feat at 6th level is about the only thing a fighter is even going to have an option to put towards a meaningful non-combat ability. Second, there are no skills or skill checks in 5e, not really - no, hear me out, please - in 5e, they're all ability Checks, a skill or proficiency /might apply/. So anything you can do with a check, anyone, with or without the skill or proficiency, can do (unless the DM rules otherwise, and he probably should, he should also set different DCs for different characters based on their class/skills/background, back/story/ etc...).</p><p></p><p> Wherever they want, it's their game. OK, you could've started here, actually. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /></p><p></p><p>That reminds me of a pretty terrible game back in the day, DragonQuest, that did something like that, probably by accident. It used a system of several arrays to generate stats and the player arranged them. There were 6 or 7 stats, all of some value to anyone, and one, MA, of value /only/ to casters, period (it wasn't your defense against magic or anything). So casters were automatically MAD, and everyone else had a prime dump stat, letting them take the array with the greatest high-low spread, too. Didn't save the game, but in that one aspect, yeah, it was better than 5e's doing with arrays & casters v non-casters, right now. </p><p></p><p>Only going to work if the Spellcasting skill has little/no value outside that application. Spellcraft fits the bill, for instance. Concentration is about the only meaningful restriction left on 5e casters, so making it a skill (that might be cheesed up with Expertise) instead of a CON save would be potentially fraught. Maybe if you require the Concentration skill /every round/ in addition to forcing CON saves when you take damage?</p><p></p><p>You could give bonus Languages, only, one per INT bonus. It's not that big a deal, it's very old-school, and it doesn't make wizards instant skill-masters. Tool Proficiencies, other than thieves tools, also seem pretty low-value, so maybe a restricted list of Tool Proficiencies?</p><p></p><p>I did something like this back in the day, somewhere in that big D-ring binder of yellowing college-ruled notepaper, I still have the variant. <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite2" alt=";)" title="Wink ;)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=";)" /> The details aren't important, but, by level, I rated skills as Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, and Legendary. Legendary let you do crazy stuff, like a Legendary Healer could revive the recently dead, a Legendary Cook (I actually had one in my campaign, so I had to come up with something) could prepare edible, nourishing meals from rocks or given the right ingredients, make food that would heal you like you were a Gauntlet sprite, or have other potion-like magical effects (the Legendary Cook went on a quest the Moon to acquire ingredients once), others were more prosaic, when a PC finally collected enough adamantine to make a magic sword he went to a Legendary smith who was the only living person who could work that metal.</p><p></p><p>If you're willing to toss concerns of realism and verisimilitude to the winds without resorting to magic, there's all sorts of things you can do with very high-level skills. Of course, when your bonus is only 6 or 10 higher than a talented amateur, it might ring a little hollow, but that's just a cross BA must bear - and the DM can lighten by simply narrating exemplary success for the Legendary One on any task he'd call for a roll from the talented amateur, and narrating disastrous failure if the amateur tries to imitate anything the Legendary needs a check to do. </p><p></p><p></p><p> </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>* to reward 'system mastery' 3e designs intentionally included 'best' choices and metaphorical M:tA 'Timmeh Cards' - choices designed to look cool, but underperform in play, aka: Trap options. Cook casually admitted that in Ivory Tower Game Design, just while laying a foundation for the actual point of the essay. He ultimately had to take it down... </p><p>[sblock="...but the internet never forgets:"]</p><p><a href="https://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ivory-tower-game-design/" target="_blank">https://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ivory-tower-game-design/</a></p><p>"Magic also has a concept of “Timmy cards.” These are cards that look cool, but aren’t actually that great in the game. The purpose of such cards is to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they’ve figured out that one card is better than the other. While D&D doesn’t exactly do that, it is true that certain game choices are deliberately better than others."</p><p><a href="https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Nb8LXZKkHajM0PEPheaRsA0&q=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design&oq=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design" target="_blank">https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Nb8LXZKkHajM0PEPheaRsA0&q=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design&oq=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design</a>[/sblock]</p><p>** why, yes, I am hypothetically talking about Regdar and Vadania, here, because iconics were 3e's pronoun dodge, pretty neat, huh.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Tony Vargas, post: 7623407, member: 996"] And you play D&D. My condolences. That'd be a /fair/ game. Those options may still be imbalanced, players of any skill which just ignore the inferior ones. If it is, it'll be pointed out that its "Not D&D" and "lacks the classic D&D feel." So, how much "an RPG /like/ D&D can be balanced..." eh... debatable. Hyperbolic enough, that if this had been Gleemax in 2005 you'd've set me off again... ;| ...oh, what the heck: No, the Animal Companion of a 1st level 3.x Druid does not compare to a 1st level 3e Fighter. The fighter's hps & AC will be higher, he can use ranged/reach weapons, and hiss feats will give him** advantages in combat that the animal can't begin to match. Sure, the "Tier 5" Fighter is /profoundly/ inferior to the "Tier 1" Druid & Companion considered together, and doesn't exactly stack up well to the Druid by herself**. But he's better than the darn Animal. (...sorry, old rant) "Samey?" No, just no, dems fight'n words. You sucked me back into the Fighter SUX rant, that was enough. But, yeah, what did I just say, above? Not feeling like D&D? That's what balance feels like, because that feel of D&D in this context /is/ the imbalance. 5e is not as utterly, systematically, intentionally*, imbalanced as 3.5: there are arguably no Tier 6 classes in 5e (that may not sound like much of an accomplishment, but it's a sign of solid design to not just outright screw up a class that bad, even the classes 5e had terrible trouble with, like the Ranger, aren't Tier 6 - and, 5e's major accomplishments are in other areas, and not to be discounted, indeed, balance is trivial by comparison, even a negative). There are Tier 1-4, for sure, and some sub-classes, considered on their own, would be lucky to be counted in Tier 5. Also, 5e is top-heavy, that way. The Druid, Cleric, & Wizard are joined in Tier 1 by the Bard (quite the leap) at the very least, and the Paladin & Warlock have also clawed their way up substantially, though whether both have joined the Sorcerer in Tier 2 or one or the other has surpassed it is debatable (or, if, indeed, the Paladin is only Tier 3 in spite of its sheer power). The fighter is an amusing case, with each sub-class arguably in a different Tier: the BM, in the Zenhtarim-variant Fighter's coveted Tier 4 position, the EK possibly rising to Tier 3, and the Champion languishing in Tier 5. Some kind of Edition Cold War where we say what's so awful about every ed in ways sure to annoy the single-ed-fans out there? I see some potential issues, there. First of all, that bonus feat at 6th level is about the only thing a fighter is even going to have an option to put towards a meaningful non-combat ability. Second, there are no skills or skill checks in 5e, not really - no, hear me out, please - in 5e, they're all ability Checks, a skill or proficiency /might apply/. So anything you can do with a check, anyone, with or without the skill or proficiency, can do (unless the DM rules otherwise, and he probably should, he should also set different DCs for different characters based on their class/skills/background, back/story/ etc...). Wherever they want, it's their game. OK, you could've started here, actually. ;) That reminds me of a pretty terrible game back in the day, DragonQuest, that did something like that, probably by accident. It used a system of several arrays to generate stats and the player arranged them. There were 6 or 7 stats, all of some value to anyone, and one, MA, of value /only/ to casters, period (it wasn't your defense against magic or anything). So casters were automatically MAD, and everyone else had a prime dump stat, letting them take the array with the greatest high-low spread, too. Didn't save the game, but in that one aspect, yeah, it was better than 5e's doing with arrays & casters v non-casters, right now. Only going to work if the Spellcasting skill has little/no value outside that application. Spellcraft fits the bill, for instance. Concentration is about the only meaningful restriction left on 5e casters, so making it a skill (that might be cheesed up with Expertise) instead of a CON save would be potentially fraught. Maybe if you require the Concentration skill /every round/ in addition to forcing CON saves when you take damage? You could give bonus Languages, only, one per INT bonus. It's not that big a deal, it's very old-school, and it doesn't make wizards instant skill-masters. Tool Proficiencies, other than thieves tools, also seem pretty low-value, so maybe a restricted list of Tool Proficiencies? I did something like this back in the day, somewhere in that big D-ring binder of yellowing college-ruled notepaper, I still have the variant. ;) The details aren't important, but, by level, I rated skills as Apprentice, Journeyman, Master, and Legendary. Legendary let you do crazy stuff, like a Legendary Healer could revive the recently dead, a Legendary Cook (I actually had one in my campaign, so I had to come up with something) could prepare edible, nourishing meals from rocks or given the right ingredients, make food that would heal you like you were a Gauntlet sprite, or have other potion-like magical effects (the Legendary Cook went on a quest the Moon to acquire ingredients once), others were more prosaic, when a PC finally collected enough adamantine to make a magic sword he went to a Legendary smith who was the only living person who could work that metal. If you're willing to toss concerns of realism and verisimilitude to the winds without resorting to magic, there's all sorts of things you can do with very high-level skills. Of course, when your bonus is only 6 or 10 higher than a talented amateur, it might ring a little hollow, but that's just a cross BA must bear - and the DM can lighten by simply narrating exemplary success for the Legendary One on any task he'd call for a roll from the talented amateur, and narrating disastrous failure if the amateur tries to imitate anything the Legendary needs a check to do. * to reward 'system mastery' 3e designs intentionally included 'best' choices and metaphorical M:tA 'Timmeh Cards' - choices designed to look cool, but underperform in play, aka: Trap options. Cook casually admitted that in Ivory Tower Game Design, just while laying a foundation for the actual point of the essay. He ultimately had to take it down... [sblock="...but the internet never forgets:"] [url]https://4thmaster.wordpress.com/2014/06/26/ivory-tower-game-design/[/url] "Magic also has a concept of “Timmy cards.” These are cards that look cool, but aren’t actually that great in the game. The purpose of such cards is to reward people for really mastering the game, and making players feel smart when they’ve figured out that one card is better than the other. While D&D doesn’t exactly do that, it is true that certain game choices are deliberately better than others." [url]https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=Nb8LXZKkHajM0PEPheaRsA0&q=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design&oq=Ivory+Tower+Game+Design[/url][/sblock] ** why, yes, I am hypothetically talking about Regdar and Vadania, here, because iconics were 3e's pronoun dodge, pretty neat, huh. [/QUOTE]
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