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<blockquote data-quote="5ekyu" data-source="post: 7478516" data-attributes="member: 6919838">To me you are describing two disparate things...an archer hitting a target misses the shot... he does not fail to draw his arrow and take a shot.a caster throwing a firebolt fails to hit the shot. he does not fail to conjure the bolt.to me the idea that a caster might fail to even cast a spell is more akin to an archer failing tosucceed at taking a shot - drawing the arrow and pulling the bow - not to a miss.*most spells*that affect unwilling targets have either a save or a to-hit or both just like most attacks do.Some spells that affect only willing targets or yourself - dont require either. Not unlike many non-attack features on other classes. Fighters don't fail their second wind, dont fail to get their their action surge, dont fail to get their rerolls on damage for their style etc.&nbsp; etc etc etci think there is an inherent flaw in equating an additional &quot;casting roll&quot; and the to-hit rolls of other abilities when hit or save is common for most attack spells. The posit that spells get some exception is not true in the broader sense.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="5ekyu, post: 7478516, member: 6919838"] To me you are describing two disparate things... an archer hitting a target misses the shot... he does not fail to draw his arrow and take a shot. a caster throwing a firebolt fails to hit the shot. he does not fail to conjure the bolt. to me the idea that a caster might fail to even cast a spell is more akin to an archer failing tosucceed at taking a shot - drawing the arrow and pulling the bow - not to a miss. *most spells*that affect unwilling targets have either a save or a to-hit or both just like most attacks do. Some spells that affect only willing targets or yourself - dont require either. Not unlike many non-attack features on other classes. Fighters don't fail their second wind, dont fail to get their their action surge, dont fail to get their rerolls on damage for their style etc. etc etc etc i think there is an inherent flaw in equating an additional "casting roll" and the to-hit rolls of other abilities when hit or save is common for most attack spells. The posit that spells get some exception is not true in the broader sense. [/QUOTE]

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