Spellcraft ?

[Dragon Mage]

I have a couple of questions in regards to using the Spellcraft skill to identify spells as they are cast.

1) Is it possible to identify spells that are not on your class list? For example a cleric trying to identify a wizard casting an arcane spells such as magic missile.

2) What about for a cleric attempting to identify a wizard casting a spell that is on his list. For example a wizard casting True Seeing.

 

[MerakSpielman]

I don't think it matters if the spell is on your list or not.

 

[Darkness]

I don't think it matters if the spell is on your list or not.

Agreed. Even a specialist wizard can roll for an effect of one of his prohibited schools (though at -5).

 

[Victim]

Non-spellcasters can take spellcraft as well. The skill works even on spells you don't have.

 

[Laslo Tremaine]

Here's a point that came up in a recent game.

Player A (a fighter) is running up a corridor and runs around a corner.

Player B (a cleric) follows the next round and discovers player A in a frozen/held/paralyzed state, with a Barbed Devil near-by. Player B uses out of character info to know that Player A is under the effect of a "Hold Person" as a spell-like ability cast by the devil, and states that he will use a targeted Dispel Magic to get rid of the Hold effect.

I as the GM, rule that Player B must make a Spellcraft check to be able to dispell just the Hold (which the charater should have no idea is there in the first place) rather than every other buff spell that is already affecting Player A.

Of course, Player B has put no points into Spellcraft, and bitched for a bit before remembering that he had a scroll of Remove Paralysis, and used that instead.

Was my ruling reasonable?

Can you dispel a spell that that you think might be on a target?

 

[MadMaxim]

I would regard your ruling as reasonable. You were actually rather generous. I wouldn't have allowed a Spellcraft check for a spell-like ability he didn't even saw or heard. Even if he made a targeted dispel, he would still risk dispelling all the other effects, as far as I can remember.

 

[Crothian]

not only can you identify spells that are not one your class list, you can identify newly created spells that you haven't seen and have no way of knowing about

 

[Altamont Ravenard]

I would regard your ruling as reasonable. You were actually rather generous. I wouldn't have allowed a Spellcraft check for a spell-like ability he didn't even saw or heard. Even if he made a targeted dispel, he would still risk dispelling all the other effects, as far as I can remember.

I agree, but I can see how the wording of the spell might let people interpret it differently.

Targeted Dispel: One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature.

Here's how I read it. When you use the Target Dispel option of the Dispel Magic spell, you may either target:
a) an object
b) a creature
c) a spell effect already in place

A Hold Person spell wouldn't qualify, for me, as a spell effect already in place. I would place in that category "stand-alone" spells, ie spells that are just "there", as in Wall of Fire, Magic Mouth, Major Image, Summon Monster, etc.

I wouldn't have let the cleric target the Hold Person effect. He would have had to target the Fighter, and as MadMaxim said, risqued dispelling every other buff that the Fighter had in place.

AR

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

H
Player B (a cleric) follows the next round and discovers player A in a frozen/held/paralyzed state, with a Barbed Devil near-by. Player B uses out of character info to know that Player A is under the effect of a "Hold Person" as a spell-like ability cast by the devil, and states that he will use a targeted Dispel Magic to get rid of the Hold effect.

Was it *really* out of character knowledge?

I'm assuming that, as a cleric, your player's character had several ranks in Knowledge (Religion), which, last I checked, covered things like:

Religion (gods and goddesses, mythic history, ecclesiastic tradition, holy symbols, undead)

So, while a Knowledge (The Planes) roll would certainly cover the abilities of various well-known demonkind / devilkind, a Knowledge (Religion) check might also reveal the common abilities of his religion's most hated foes, which might include such creatures: "And the horde of Grim'zk the Undying fell upon the host of Saint Epicalia, and blood did water the ground like a summer rain. Like the wheat of the field, or the sands of the shore, yea, that was the count of those who were slain, held rigid by the devils' unholy magic. And lo, Saint Epicalia held the Talisman of Drussh on high, and spaketh, invoking the Seven Holy Names, and so the magic's grasp upon her holy soldiers was loos'd, and with a righteous cry they fell upon the unholy host."

Something to think about, anyway.

Can you dispel a spell that that you think might be on a target?

I'd allow it, with the knowledge that, if it's not there, you just wasted a Dispel.

EDIT:

Alternatively, if you think that the target is a Dispel Magic cast on a creature, and you target that spell, but the *actual* cause of the paralysis is, say, a Holy or Unholy Word, you've also just wasted a spell.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Here's how I read it. When you use the Target Dispel option of the Dispel Magic spell, you may either target:
a) an object
b) a creature
c) a spell effect already in place

A Hold Person spell wouldn't qualify, for me, as a spell effect already in place.

Whereas I would rule exactly the opposite, in that:

1. It's a spell (or, in this case, spell-like ability)
2. It has a duration longer than "instantaneous"
3. It's currently in effect
4. You know the target

Seems like you can't get more basic that that.