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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Warchild" data-source="post: 138840" data-attributes="member: 769">Re: Ok, ONE last response...A +2 to save vs divine magic and outsider abilities certaintly isn'tweak at all. +3 to Reflex saves for a fighter type can be quite effective as well. Again, they are missing out one 1 feat ONLY, not necessarily Weapon Specialization. I don't know of a single feat that gives you +3 to Reflex saves and +2 to save vs divine/outsider magics. Those two abilities are worth 2-3 feats, i would say.Which is not anything other than your personal opinion here. Opinions vary, but many to most of the fighters i have seen have Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization by 4th level. They are in no way wasted feats, and certainlty as good as Dodge, Cleave, and Spirited Charge. I don't see how you think they would be better spent on Dodge and Cleave. I don't think nearly so much the hardship you think it is. The only feat chain they are missing out on on completing is The Improved Critical chain, which they can get 1 level later. The could achieve the dodge-mobility-spring attack chain, the Mounted Combat-Trample-Spirited Charge chain, or the Power Attack-Cleave-Great Cleave. This in addition to the Weapon Focus requirement of the class. Frankly i don't see the big struggle to complete any feat chains they might be interested in, in fact any of these could be completed by 4th level. The only thing they struggle against is Weapon Critical, which they cane get  1 level later than they would have if they stayed a Fighter.LOL! You call it overstating my case, i call it overwhelming evidence. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Lets look at it this way: If the Fighter had stayed a fighter he would get these bonuses(8th-12th level fighter):+5 Base Attack+3 Fortitude+2 Reflex+2  Will save10 Skill points5D10 Hit points3 FeatsWhat he gains those levels as a Divine Champion:+5 Attack+4 Fortitude+4 Reflex Saves+1 Will Save10 Skill Points (plus the Knowlege-Religion and Spot skills)5D10 Hit Points2 Feats-Lay of Hands - Heal 5+CHA bonus hit points per day.-Sacred Defense - +2 vs Divine magic and outsider abilities-Smite Infidel - a 1/day ability to add a +0-+5 attack/+5 damage attack against any creature not of his religion-Divine Wrath - +3 to attack, Damage, and Saves, plus Damage Reduction 5/- for rounds equal to your Charisma Bonus!!!!!The cost of all these extra abilities is Weapon Focus and 6 (almost certaintly 3 ranks cross classed) skill points. Weapon Focus is never a wasted feat for a fighter, although 6 skill points can be sticky if your not human or real dumb!! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Any character worth his spurs is going to make sure he has some Charisma bonus, because any points he spends on the stat(assuming you are even using the point system that is), no matter what the cost to his other stats, because the pay off from a higher charisma with this prestige class, WAY more than compensates for the other stat(s) he took away from.I think if you walked to a fighter an said "hey pal, if you have the Weapon Focus, spend some skill points and give up a Feat, i'll give you an extra +2 to your saves, minor ability to heal yourself, ability to smite 1/day, +2 vs saves vs divine magic/outsider abilities, and Divine Wrath!! How about that?".Not speak for anyone here, but i think most of them would say yes.I'm glad you got something out of it! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />We still don't agree at all, but it was a fun trip. Our point of views are just a little different is all.</blockquote>

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