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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Chaosmancer" data-source="post: 7038339" data-attributes="member: 6801228">This is an interesting discussion.One thing we might be having trouble with in this discussion though is the fact that a lot of this is in isolation, and focused on a series of three iconic spells whose damage may not be balanced right. Also, I think some class's spells scale much better than others. Take clerics for example:Guiding Bolt is 4d6 and advantage on next hit at 1st level (average 14?) with +1d6 per level and a long rangeInflict Wounds is a melee 3d10 (average 15?) with +1d10 per levelI think those both scale rather well, but, there are a few limits to that assertion.1) They are single target spells instead of AOE2) They deal instant damage instead of damage over timeSo, most clerics aren't going to want to use them if they can instead pull off Spirit Guardians or Spiritual Weapon for long term damage against multiple targets. But, they also don't get almost any other single target spells.However compare the 8d10 (average 40?) of Inflict wounds at 6th to the 14d6 of Harm (Average 49) and they are pretty dang close in just pure damage numbers. Harm has range and the potential for lowering max hp, but that's why it is a big name spell.So, in addition to just the spells, should we also look at the potential list (after all, Druid gets burning hands but does not get fireball) and consider how the spells fit into the larger context as well? It looks like a lot of work.Quick anecdote, I played a storm sorcerer for a while, and it took me until 11th level to give up on Chromatic orb. I loved the spell, but by that point I could no longer deny that it wasn't worth the spell slot to cast under normal circumstances (kept it for multi-type damage in case I ever needed it but I didn't). However, even at much higher levels Call Lightning and Lightning Bolt never felt like they weren't worth it, even as we got to 15th level. I wonder if certain spells at 1st and 2nd level are meant to have a relatively harsh drop in power. There is a massive spike when characters reach 5th level, which is when PCs gain access to 3rd level spells. I wonder if the intent is that 1st spells are useful when you get them, but you are supposed to abandon them quickly and find your standard spells at 5th. Barring of course the utility spells that never go out of style.Also, for Warlocks. Armor of Agathys is relatively weak at 1st or 2nd, but upping the temp hp and therefore the damage it deals to 10 per level might become really powerful, as you could deal multiple instances of 50 damage at 9th level for casting a single spell. And Hunger of Hadar is brutal, being an AOE that sticks around on the field while dealing massive damage. It sucks to feel like you are wasting an slot by upcasting a spell, but I think (for me at least) that is more because you have so few slots rather than the bang, because Warlocks work closer to how you guys say 3.X worked. Your level determines the strength of your various spells instead of the slot level you cast it at, there was just no way to do that in 5e that was more elegant than auto-leveling the slots you get.</blockquote>

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