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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hawk Diesel" data-source="post: 7330927" data-attributes="member: 59848">Sorry, are we talking about the NPC's Handbook? The DMG? The MM?Oh, wait, we're talking about a spell in the Player's Handbook? So you can understand my concern when we determine whether or not a spell is balanced to be used as a player. Monsters in the MM and NPCs do not follow the same guidelines for character creation or powers as players do. Otherwiae, we would never see NPCs with abilities outside of what players can achieve. For example, Cult Fanatics are NPCs presented at the end of the MM, but they get the Dark Devotion ability, something PCs cannot gain. Or the Archmage being resistant to damage from spells, yet having none of the other abilities granted by an Abjurer wizard. NPCs do not follow guidelines for creation that are required for the players. Therefore, whether or not a spell works for NPCs has little value in a discussion for how well spells function as intended in the hands of players.Wonderful. Then how about you present examples of such spells, or perhaps comment on the changes to spells proposed by those who have posted here, rather than declaring whether the opinions of others are faulty based on how spells function for NPCs? Or perhaps help us understand how spells we propose to suck maybe don't completely suck for a player (once again, the target audience for the Player's Handbook).I see this as a topic of a completely different thread. Others can correct me if I am reaching or presuming too greatly, but the previous spells mentioned were mentioned because of how they are poor spells in the hands of players, not because of how they are used in the hands of a DM.EDIT: Wrote some of that in anger and should have left it off the post. Thought better of it and took it out since it didn't contribute to the conversation in any meaningful way. My apologies for allowing it to get personal.</blockquote>

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