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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Sylrae" data-source="post: 4997182" data-attributes="member: 48520">This question seriously depends on how large we define the standard potion as. I'm seeing a 6 second potion, as like 3 to 4 mouthfuls around 2 oz. 5 or 6 mouthfuls if im trying to drink it quickly. Assuming a potion goes down like vodka, maybe 3oz per potion. ~While I can't stand 4e, I AM inclined against Save or Suck. I simply don't think you should be taken out of the game (or have the ability to take someone out of the game) without wearing down someones defenses, or multiple rolls. (We pulled death by massive damage too, but added in exploding crits). That being said: simple Save or Suck fix: If you fail your save, you do another save. This time with a -2 penalty (-4 if you think I'm being too generous). Suddenly the Save or Suck spells require an extra save before the suck. And honestly, that's as much of a nerf as I need to make those spells palatable. *shrug*. Also, maybe someone could do the math for me and see how much worse that makes them, and then adjust spell levels accordingly based on how likely they are to kill appropriately powered creatures compared to other kill stuff spells of the same level. If you want to be easier on them mechanically but sadistic Psychologically, allow them to keep making saves, giving them additional -4 penalties for each one. eventually they either passed it (which gets less and less likely as time goes on and the player gets more and more filled with despair), or they reach a -20 to -23 modifier, and fail it utterly.For some of the ones that kill you outright, other nerfs exist. Here are two I've seen.- You're dropped to -1 Hit Points, and bleeding.- Do a fairly large amount of ability score damage (which CAN kill you) It's all a matter of how much you mean to nerf them. If you nerf them too much they become either useless or need to be a lower level. OR!: Use the action point rules in trailbazer. BBEGs and Players will both have them, and in the event of a Save or Suck, they can spend an action point to redo the save, or they can spend it in advance to add a d6 to the save.  I combined Action Points with oWoD's Nature and Demeanor Archetypes, so players regain an Action Points when they successfully do one of like 35 things (and they picked which one will apply to them at character creation based on their character's personality). Mind you, that doesn't mean that all the spell levels couldnt use some tweaking. Baleful Polymorph is a crazy good level 5 spell, and could probably be bumped to 6 or 7. One time I saw one player polymorph another into a bunny, and then stick him in a bag of holding. Just to be mean. Then he would do things like throw in a house cat for a round or 2. keep the bunny alive and torture him. Nobody knew what was up with the bunny until it was over, and the GM was the kind who let it go on for more than a session.  Personally I'm not a fan of negative levels. Energy Drain, and level loss from being resurrected are crap. This is not a balance/power gripe. This is a "OMG IT SLOWS THINGS DOWN TOO MUCH" gripe.</blockquote>

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