Upgrade your account to a Community Supporter account and remove most of the site ads.
ShortQuests -- Pocket Sized Adventures! An all-new collection of digest-sized D&D adventures designed for 1-2 game sessions.

Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Liquidsabre" data-source="post: 1781891" data-attributes="member: 15635">Except that the loss of damage on the SC's part is illusory.You see the super-reach of the SC provide's the wepaon with many MORE attacks than either of the two weapons you mention would normally receive thanks to AoO. Thus the spiked chain ultimately out-damages other comparable non-reach weapons. As you say, if the SC gave up damage then we would have, as you say, a fair trade. Unfortunately this isn't exactly the case. Actually I'm comparing the spiked chain to (being an exotic wepaon) to other exotic weapons. But that's a good point and yet still the SC will out damage all of those other 2-handed martial weapons due to it's higher number of attacks the weapon receives through AoO. I'm curious as to why you might neglect the occurence of AoO when refering to damage output but mention it below?I'm not sure this is a viable argument. Afterall, a fighter who specialies with the bastard sword (a feat-intensive weapon?) will see all other weapons they fight against as open target's for sundering (if they decided to spend 2 feats to be able to do effectively) since they specialize only with bastard swords. C'mon really now, feat intensive? We're talking about fighters here right? The guys that feats are dime-a-dozen? Sounds like you had a rough time finding a skilled weaponsmith to make you spiked chains hmm? I doubt it should be as difficult as you're making it out to be to get a hold of and enchant SCs in a core-game (a no low-wealth/magic game).Close but not quite. You see to get the same number of attacks the guisarme-wielder still must also select combat reflexes. This only gives the guisarme-wielder a 1 feat lead on the SC-wielder. For the expenditure for a single feat the SC gets: super-reach = not vulnerable within 5ft to grapples, sunders, trips, casters, etc., can disarm with a +2, finessible. Oh good, I didn't think it was but just wanted to make sure all the bases were covered.Not just myself as you should note, there are quite a few others to say the least. I'd wait until you've seen a wielder with all the synergies stacked (multiple feats yes), call it feat-intensive if you will, vs a fighter of the same level witha comparable weapon and the same number of feats. Have you sat down lately and compared fighter builds for example?Well sorry I couldn't be more helpful, but I do appreciate your views on this. Your point on normal reach weapons and the number of attacks being relatively equal to the spiked chain wielder is pretty good. It's just that once you get past those first few feats the synergies of the spiked chain jump beyond comparable weapons such as the guisarme. The guisarme just can't keep up over the long run, in versitality and power.Compare even at 4th level two fighters:Ftr 4Guisarme-Wielder[1] Weapon focus [2] Combat Reflexes[3] Combat Expertise[4] Weapon Specialization[6] Improved Trip[6] *bonus feat*Ftr 4Spiked Chain-Wielder[1] Exotic Weapon Proficiency[2] Combat Reflexes[3] Weapon Focus[4] Weapon Specialization[6] Combat Expertise[6] Improved TripNote the guisarme-wileder is just as specialized as the SC-wielder. Comparing the builds we can see there are more than enough feats for the SC-wielder, not only that but the SC needs only one more feat (EWP) than the normal reach weapon. For this ONE extra feat the SC gains disarm +2, super-reach, and finessibility. C'mon, you can't say that the spiked chain is still not the best bang for your buck? And I don't think availability is really much of an issue unless you are playing a non-core game with low-magic and low-wealth.</blockquote>

Verification