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General Tabletop Discussion
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
Spirits- what can they do, and what can be done to them
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<blockquote data-quote="DracoSuave" data-source="post: 4733452" data-attributes="member: 71571"><p>I don't disagree that Conjurations -can- be creatures. By the same token, Dwarves -can- be paladins, weapons -can- be magical. But that doesn't mean that every dwarf is a paladin, nor every weapon is magical, and it would be silly to assume that without a statement to the contrary.</p><p></p><p>What I am saying is that, seeing as the term 'creature' contains rules baggage, that a power that actually conjures a creature will say 'This is a creature.' This, coupled with the number of powers that conjure 'creatures' but do not actually summon creatures (look at the cleric dailies) and have been ruled not to conjure actual creatures, that a power that uses the same language and templating will not also summon a creature. If Knight of Glory, Knights of Unyielding Valor, Astral Defenders, and Spiritual Weapon aren't creatures, then I see no reason to believe that Call Spirit Companion is a creature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>It's only a neverland if you forget that other conjurations have that same 'neverland.' Some of the cleric prayers mentioned above do, as well as Flaming Sphere, and some of the wizard conjurations. It's hardly unprecedented, and in fact, before the errata, ALL Conjurations worked in that way.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Basic attacks are attack powers everyone has, regardless of class. PHB p287. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The problem is that the interpretation requires multiple inferences and assumptions, while ignoring the fact that other powers using the same template are not creatures. The interpretation 'This is not a creature' is arrived at simply by applying the 'Specific Beats General' rule, in that in the absence of a specific rule, apply the general rule. It would be easy to infer that SC is a creature if, for instance, they said 'Your Spirit Companion is a creature.' Contrast that with Summoning. Summoning flat out states you summon creatures. Which means that the assumption is, with every Summoning power, that if you Summon, it's a creature unless otherwise stated. </p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's the sticking point with me, re: the design team. They've done a lot of research and work the past year improving templating and making their powers read better. A lot of powers, for example, don't mention 'when attacked' but read 'when hit or missed' which is a lot more precise. They've included a section on how powers are read in order, and they've even included the occasional double-attack-style power that goes Attack, Hit, then Effect: Make two more attacks. </p><p></p><p>So, with the clean up of powers to improve readability and all that, I find it -very- hard to believe that they'd forget to put 'This is a creature' on a class's defining feature. I find it -very- hard to believe that, after a year of playtesting, that the question 'Hey, is this a creature?' never came up.</p><p></p><p>So, it's -reasonable- to assume that it is not a creature. It's the -only- interpretation that doesn't involve making rules up.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="DracoSuave, post: 4733452, member: 71571"] I don't disagree that Conjurations -can- be creatures. By the same token, Dwarves -can- be paladins, weapons -can- be magical. But that doesn't mean that every dwarf is a paladin, nor every weapon is magical, and it would be silly to assume that without a statement to the contrary. What I am saying is that, seeing as the term 'creature' contains rules baggage, that a power that actually conjures a creature will say 'This is a creature.' This, coupled with the number of powers that conjure 'creatures' but do not actually summon creatures (look at the cleric dailies) and have been ruled not to conjure actual creatures, that a power that uses the same language and templating will not also summon a creature. If Knight of Glory, Knights of Unyielding Valor, Astral Defenders, and Spiritual Weapon aren't creatures, then I see no reason to believe that Call Spirit Companion is a creature. It's only a neverland if you forget that other conjurations have that same 'neverland.' Some of the cleric prayers mentioned above do, as well as Flaming Sphere, and some of the wizard conjurations. It's hardly unprecedented, and in fact, before the errata, ALL Conjurations worked in that way. Basic attacks are attack powers everyone has, regardless of class. PHB p287. The problem is that the interpretation requires multiple inferences and assumptions, while ignoring the fact that other powers using the same template are not creatures. The interpretation 'This is not a creature' is arrived at simply by applying the 'Specific Beats General' rule, in that in the absence of a specific rule, apply the general rule. It would be easy to infer that SC is a creature if, for instance, they said 'Your Spirit Companion is a creature.' Contrast that with Summoning. Summoning flat out states you summon creatures. Which means that the assumption is, with every Summoning power, that if you Summon, it's a creature unless otherwise stated. That's the sticking point with me, re: the design team. They've done a lot of research and work the past year improving templating and making their powers read better. A lot of powers, for example, don't mention 'when attacked' but read 'when hit or missed' which is a lot more precise. They've included a section on how powers are read in order, and they've even included the occasional double-attack-style power that goes Attack, Hit, then Effect: Make two more attacks. So, with the clean up of powers to improve readability and all that, I find it -very- hard to believe that they'd forget to put 'This is a creature' on a class's defining feature. I find it -very- hard to believe that, after a year of playtesting, that the question 'Hey, is this a creature?' never came up. So, it's -reasonable- to assume that it is not a creature. It's the -only- interpretation that doesn't involve making rules up. [/QUOTE]
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