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Message: <blockquote data-quote="pezagent" data-source="post: 1290090" data-attributes="member: 15568">This post is a summary of comments relating to my posts. It should wrap-up the points I've already made. Where comments are appreciated, I still remain seated in my opinions, as there have been no convincing arguments for me to change position.This is not true.No, it's not. Sam & Frodo being rescued are part of the narrative--that this narrative is part of the story or plot is misinterpreted. Dénouement leads to the resolution of the plot, it doesn't summarize or clean it up. The plot of LOTRThe plot of LOTR is to destroy the ring. The characters and thier lives are incidental to this. This does not make them unimportant to the reader/viewer, however. In speculative fiction it is better to develop characters outside of the plot, rather than create melodrama by having their development drive it. This is where most fantasy/sci-fi fails.-----------------If you're suggesting that LOTR has subplots I don't agree. The plot is quite clear in LOTR--that the ring of power must be destroyed.If you're suggesting there are plots within LOTR that I've missed then please be my guest and point them out to me and we can discuss them.The term dénouemenet, when used properly, suggests just this--that all twists and turns and mysteries created by the plot are revealed, untangled, and resolved. If plot isn't resolved it's nothing more than a case of bad writing--which brings us back to deus ex machina--divine intervention used to resolve plot.Here you suggest that analysis is a matter of opinion. I don't agree. Plot resolution and epilogue are very clear distinctions within fiction--within the structure of drama itself. And the better the work, the easier it is to determine where these distinctions are made. LOTR is very easy to dissect. I submit that it is the lack of intermediate/advanced fiction theory that leads to misinterpretation and misunderstanding. ------------------I don't think personal attacks are necessary. If you don't agree with what I have to say, make your point. I believe I've been very polite and patient in regards to peoples opinions about how fiction works. If you spent twenty years playing D&D and I came along telling you drarves and elves love each other I think you'd have something to say about it. Eh?---------------------------I don't agree that the eagles are dues ex machina, I've made very good points why.Once again, by the time the eagles arrive, the plot of LOTR has been resolved, they are not part of the plot. Plot is the story, created through conflict, told through narrative. Once the ring is destroyed, there's no more conflict. The plot is resolved. It couldn't be more clear than in the movie--all the bad guys are swallowed up by the earth. ------------------------------No, I have no defense for Tolkien. And one doesn't get out of story, one gets out of plot. Do you know how to end a story? You place The End where appropriate. Would you like to hear the world's shortest story? "Once upon a time, the end." That's a very interesting, personal interpretation of Greek history. However, it's not what deus ex machina means. I think you're reaching for straws here to make your point. This requires more interpretation than is necessary. You're suggesting that Tolkein is using symbolism which has nothing to do with the concept of deus ex machina.An interesting interpretation--of symbolism. That's not deus ex machina. It's not clumsy, contrived, unexplainable, or related to resolving the plot or ending the story. It's something one would expect to find in speculative fiction.I sincerely appreciate your attempts.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Unfortunately, I believe you have described the Eagles more as a form of symbolism than that of divine intervention. My objections against improper use of literary terms still stand where I sit./johnny <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /></blockquote>

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