D&D 3E/3.5 SPOOKED! A 3.5 Detection Question

[Water Bob]

Question: How do you think the Spot/Listen detection rules are meant to be played?

For example, let's say your PCs are moving through a forest. For whatever reason, one of your players gets spooked and thinks that there's something "out there". The player says, "I'm aware (his character is aware) at all times as we walk along the trail. I make a conscious effort to look in all directions, and I try to focus on what I can hear in the distance."

Now, you, as GM, may or may not have an encounter planned. Let's say that you do. You've got a pack of three bandits watching from atop a large, overgrown rock. The trail heads to a stream, and when the PCs start wading across the stream, the bandits will jump from the rock, rush to the stream, and attempt to ambush the PCs while they're in the middle of the water.

My question is, under the rules, how is this situation diced?

How many checks are made? One for the entire encounter? One roll for Listen and one for Spot? More than one roll for each, but when and why?

 

[Sunseeker]

For specifically stating that his character is "aware", I would give him a +2 to perception-related checks he makes. However, a person who is "on edge" about being ambushed can also be betrayed by it. Small noises become big deals, their pack horse stepping on a stick, the flutter of bird wings, the rustle of the wind in the leaves. Paranoia will burn you out. Lets say while "traveling" everyone gets a turn to do something. A player may choose to do nothing, but every time you come to Paranoid-guy's turn, he must make a check. Sometimes spot, sometimes listen. Even the silence should bother him.

Give him lines like "You hear a rustle in the trees, but when you look up it's only a squirrel." "A loud crunch rings out behind you! But it's only the horse stepping on a stick." "A shadow moves in the distance, what do you do? *he charges in to attack* You find nothing, it must have been a trick of the light." *he rolls a 15+10 for 25* "You hear nothing at all, even the sounds of your own footsteps seem muffled."

Lull your player into a false sense of security, or heighten his paranoia. Depending on how well the bandits have hidden themselves, even good checks, even nat 20's may not discover them until it's too late, and it's ALWAYS DM discretion to determine what clues, if any, the player finds, of if the player can detect the bandits at all, who presumably are skilled in stealth and hiding so it should be difficult to detect them.

I would say at the end, your "aware" character would get to act in the surprise round of the ambush. But unless he's very specific with what he's checking for, and you ALWAYS want players to be specific, and says something like "I look behind the incredibly large boulder up ahead before crossing the stream." He's not going to find anything.


**as a DM and player I dislike player statements like "I am aware while traveling!" Okay, great...but unless you are actually looking for something in particular, you're more likely to get paranoid over nothing than find anything at all. Players should determine what they're rolling for first, and be explicit about that. Even "I look for bandits in the woods!" is too general, to which I would say "The woods are very big, they are on your left, your right, before you and behind you, and above you. Which part of the woods are you looking in?"

 

[Water Bob]

OK, so where do you make the opposed throws? When the party is on the trail, and the bandits are on the rock, motionless, watching them? What if the party is on the trail for several minutes, and range to the bandits on the rock is constantly decreasing? Each step favors the party's dectection. So, where is the throw made? At what point during the trip?

Or, is the check made later, as the party approaches the stream, which triggers the bandits' movement toward the party for ambush?

I agree that if you're going to make multiple rolls, it favors the dectecting party. The more chances they get, the more likely that they'll detect the bandits.

OTOH, if only one throw for the entire encounter is made, where should that throw be made? When, during the PC's travel, should it be made?

 

[LostSoul]

This is my take:

Each bandit has to make a Hide check if they might be seen. The PCs each make Spot checks when they "have a chance to spot [the bandits] in a reactive manner". That's the only Spot check that they make. Especially wary PCs can make Spot checks every round as they try "to spot something [they] failed to see previously", but since it's a Move action they'll be forced to move at half-speed.

I'd make the rolls (as DM, I'd roll everything) as soon as the PCs have a chance to see the bandits - line of sight - even if the range penalty to Spot (-1 per 10') makes success impossible. At that point I know how close the PCs need to be in order to spot the hiding bandits. (e.g. The bandit with the lowest Hide check is 19. The PC with the highest Spot check is 29. The PC will be able to spot the bandit from a range of 100'.) The PC who is making Spot checks every round messes this up, but whatever. (If he Takes 10 that'd make life much easier.)

As the bandits start to move, if they want to remain hidden they'll need to make Hide checks as part of their movement each round. (They'll need to move at half-speed in order to avoid severe penalties to Hide.) These checks would be opposed by the original Spot checks the PCs made, except for that guy who's moving half-speed and making Spot checks each round. If the bandits aren't trying to remain hidden then the PCs will see them, of course.

 

[Dozen]

Or, is the check made later, as the party approaches the stream, which triggers the bandits' movement toward the party for ambush?

It wouldn't be very sensible to make a check only then and there. That's rather unfair, and illogical. The situation lowers the DC, but if the players are actively listening and looking for oddities, they should get to roll once per turn for a Move Action.

I agree that if you're going to make multiple rolls, it favors the dectecting party. The more chances they get, the more likely that they'll detect the bandits.

And it should be this way. Hiding and staying silent is not easy in real life, either. Bluff, Diplomacy and Hide checks are child's play to abuse when the DM ignores reality. Make sure you don't.

 

[delericho]

My question is, under the rules, how is this situation diced?

Under the rules, it's handled rather differently than most DMs (including myself) would actually handle it.

Question: How do you think the Spot/Listen detection rules are meant to be played?

For example, let's say your PCs are moving through a forest. For whatever reason, one of your players gets spooked and thinks that there's something "out there". The player says, "I'm aware (his character is aware) at all times as we walk along the trail. I make a conscious effort to look in all directions, and I try to focus on what I can hear in the distance."

That's flavour text. The PC gets no benefit from declaring he's alert - he's assumed to always be reasonably alert.

Now, you, as GM, may or may not have an encounter planned. Let's say that you do. You've got a pack of three bandits watching from atop a large, overgrown rock. The trail heads to a stream, and when the PCs start wading across the stream, the bandits will jump from the rock, rush to the stream, and attempt to ambush the PCs while they're in the middle of the water.

How many checks are made? One for the entire encounter? One roll for Listen and one for Spot? More than one roll for each, but when and why?

When the PCs enter the "encounter", you make opposed checks - each bandit makes an opposed Hide check against each PC's Spot check. If the bandit is moving (before they "jump from the rock"), you also have each bandit make an opposed Move Silently check against each PC's Listen check.

(Note - if there are three bandits and four PCs, then each bandit makes four Hide checks. Each PC makes one Spot check, and uses that value to oppose all the bandits.)

Because the PCs are making no effort to be hidden, they cannot win surprise. Each bandit may win surprise against all, some, or none of the PCs (any PC who notices any of the bandits gets to act in the surprise round; any PC who does not notice a bandit does not get to act in the surprise round - and don't let your players pull the "I quickly warn the others" trick. They've already had three chances to spot the bandits, if they've failed all three then they're surprised.)

And you proceed from there.

Now, as I said, that's not how I would handle the situation. Instead, simply put, I would make one Hide check for the bandits (with a -2 penalty for there being three of them), and would secretly make Spot checks on behalf of the PCs. And, as above, it is possible that all, some, or none of the PCs will be surprised. (But I still wouldn't allow the "I quickly warn the others" trick!)