Spycraft Question : Defense Value

[gustavef]

First off, I am realy enjoy seeing someone other then WotC extend the d20 System. "Core Ablities" is a nice way to reduce the advantage of extreme multi classing, and Budget points are also realy nice.

But......

Why do you loose your class Defense Bonus if you wear armour? Especaily since most armours do not provide any positive bonus to Defense. (and the highest positive single piece is a sealed or miltary helmet at +2)

Except for the Soldier, Amrour be comes less worth while as the character gose up in level. Sure Amrour offers you Damage Resistance, but not at the chance of getting hit. (There probaly is a break point in the value of defense vs damage resisitance, but I haven't taken the time to calulate it.)

If the Armours listed provided more Defence Bonus, I could see the reason, but they don't.

Color me confused..


-gustavef

 

[Aaron2]

Spycraft

Armor does stack with Defense in Sypcraft. You've noticed that sometimes armor gives a bonus or penalty to Defense however. I am generally against Armor=DC but AEG did it about as well as possible. Wouldn't work in a fantasy game, however.


Aaron

 

[Doc_Klueless]

This is off the Spycraft mailing list:

> Ok. Looking through the book, I have an issue with how armor
> works. By the rules, anyone wearing any sort of armor loses
> the entirety of the defense bonus granted by their class and
> level. In some cases, this is ok, but in some cases it makes n
> no sense.

This is intentional. At higher levels, armor is supposed to become gradually less and less attractive, particularly for non-soldiers. After all, how many high level super spies from film and cinema wear body armor? James Bond and Ethan Hunt spring to mind as folks that don't...

B. D. Flory
Freelance Writer/Editor

and

> Actually, I thought it was said that when you have different
> bonuses, you take the higher of the two?

Armor is specifically excepted. From page 21, col. A, paragraph 12:

"Def. Bon: The agent's bonus to his Defense. If armor is worn, the
armor's bonus replaces this bonus - the two modifiers do not stack."

B.D. Flory

and

The theory behind the armor rules focuses around two concepts. First, superspies don't normally wander around in armor. The rules are to discourage frequent armor use.
Second, armor gives damage reduction. Read the combat example at the end of the chapter to see how a soldier in full gear can just stand and take it. This is the point of armor. You can't avoid the hit, but it doesn't hurt nearly as much.

Lugh

Does this help? Actually, being part of the Spycraft mailing list is a pretty good idea as the designers hang out there. B.D. Flory, I believe, is one such person. I know for a fact that Patrick Kapera and Kevin Wilson post on it.

 

[SonOfLilith]

Think about it, if someone is wearing a think bullet-proof vest, it's not going to make it any harder for them to get hit, and probably even easier because you loose agility, but the bullets won't hurt as much. Personally, I like this method alot better, though the old Armor=AC does simplify everything.

 

[nsruf]

I haven't got the book (it might take a few more weeks till I can get it in Germany), but the Defense Bonus and Armor issue was what bothered me most in their "Spycraft Light" free download. While I see the point with emulating the genre, i.e. no superspies in heavy armor, it sadly makes the rules far less useful for playing a more realistic, contemporary campaign - something I had hoped for them to cover.

From a realistic viewpoint, wearing a bullet-proof vest shouldn't be more hampering than e.g wearing padded winter clothing. But the latter lets you keep your full DB and the former reduces it to +1. Oh well, there's still d20 CoC and later this year d20 Modern to look forward to...

 

[Doc_Klueless]

Oh well, there's still d20 CoC and later this year d20 Modern to look forward to...

On the other hand, if that's the only rule that's currently* bothering you, I'd say that's pretty good for a RPG. I haven't run across a game yet that I didn't have problems with at least one or two rules contained therein.

But to be more serious, it should be a minor tweak. There were problems I had with what little I've seen of d20 Modern (though I can't remember what they were. I think the classes were one problem. I think.) With all these games coming out, it should be a minor task to mix and match to my heart's desire.

* I say currently, because you don't have the book yet and neither do I. For all I know, I could read it and go, "this blows!" Though, I'm starting to doubt I will. Heh.

 

[gustavef]

On the other hand, if that's the only rule that's currently* bothering you, I'd say that's pretty good for a RPG. I haven't run across a game yet that I didn't have problems with at least one or two rules contained therein.

But to be more serious, it should be a minor tweak. There were problems I had with what little I've seen of d20 Modern (though I can't remember what they were. I think the classes were one problem. I think.) With all these games coming out, it should be a minor task to mix and match to my heart's desire.

This is true. And every game I have gotten always needed some tweaking. The only problem I have with just say "add your class and armour for defence bonus" is will it affect all the classes eqaully at higher levels?

Right now this is all academic. So I would be curious to hear what others thought.

-gustavef

 

[Ruvion]

I'm not sure how relevant this is with Spycraft (since I haven't seen 'em yet), but there were some posters, me among them, that believed in giving Defense bonus equal to Maximum Dex bonus for the armor. This limits the Defense bonus without allowing all of it to stack (useful for lower level characters with low Defense bonus but not so much for the higher end characters).

 

[nsruf]

On the other hand, if that's the only rule that's currently* bothering you, I'd say that's pretty good for a RPG.

As I said, I haven't seen the full product yet, so it will be some time till I can fully dissect it I just looked into "Spycraft Light" to see how generally applicable the rules would be for modern roleplaing and the DB thing bothered me. I would rather apply armor check penalty to AC or something like that.

To be fair, the other new aspects of the game, especially "action dice" struck me as quite brilliant. And I am sure spycraft is very appropriate for the genre.

I haven't run across a game yet that I didn't have problems with at least one or two rules contained therein.

You should see my houserules for D&D

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Without knowing much about Spycraft (but having experience with Starwars D20), I tend to make Defense Values a dodge bonus. This means the defense bonus doesn`t help you if you are flat-footed, but it will help you against touch attacks and so on. Having some kind of "Max Dex+Defense Modifier" might be fair.
In Wheel of time, where they also use Class Defense Values, they allow armsmen at a certain level to add their defense bonus (only from their armsmen class) to their Armor Class, even when wearing Armor.

Mustrum Ridcully