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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Lizard" data-source="post: 4074446" data-attributes="member: 1054">They can?A sleeping character is "helpless". I've never heard of making a reflex save while sleeping. (Fortitude? Your body fights off the poison. Will? Maybe...your mind is still active and your subconscious will defend you. But Reflex?)If you tossed a sleeping person off a cliff, I think I'd let them make some sort of check -- wisdom, maybe? -- to wake up and take normal hit point damage. Otherwise, it would be resolved as a coup de grace.If there's a rule which explicitly states "sleeping characters get reflex saves", it's a stupid rule. How does the presence of stupid rules in 3e (of which there are many) justify even stupider rules in 4e?</blockquote>