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<blockquote data-quote="mxyzplk" data-source="post: 4074977" data-attributes="member: 16450">There's a difference between realism and versimilitude.&nbsp; Even with &quot;fantasy&quot; there's supposed to be in-world reasons for things, even if it's as simple as &quot;calling on arcane powers to make a fireball!&quot;&nbsp; So far even the WotC explanation of marking from an in-game perspective is very weak.&nbsp; It leans very very heavily to the gamist side, it has nothing to do with fantasy.&nbsp; Let's say each character got a free &quot;-1 penalty&quot; token they could put on any opponent in a round.&nbsp; It has no in-game-world explanation or effect.&nbsp; That's a board game, that's NOT fantasy.&nbsp; I may be talking into the wind here, for folks like Hong the Overly Self Important are willing to do whatever's necessary to justify every jot and tittle that Wizards produces on this, but there are many people that consider a tenuous/no link between the rules and the in-game subjective experience to break dispelief and harm their enjoyment of a roleplaying game.And whether they're expensive or cheap, the immense fiddliness of D&amp;D 4e minis combat is way turning me off.&nbsp;&nbsp; Back &quot;in the day&quot; we did D&amp;D combat without any minis or a tactical map and it was very enjoyable - I find it ironic that anyone who's into all that would lecture anyone on the nature of &quot;fantasy&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="mxyzplk, post: 4074977, member: 16450"] There's a difference between realism and versimilitude. Even with "fantasy" there's supposed to be in-world reasons for things, even if it's as simple as "calling on arcane powers to make a fireball!" So far even the WotC explanation of marking from an in-game perspective is very weak. It leans very very heavily to the gamist side, it has nothing to do with fantasy. Let's say each character got a free "-1 penalty" token they could put on any opponent in a round. It has no in-game-world explanation or effect. That's a board game, that's NOT fantasy. I may be talking into the wind here, for folks like Hong the Overly Self Important are willing to do whatever's necessary to justify every jot and tittle that Wizards produces on this, but there are many people that consider a tenuous/no link between the rules and the in-game subjective experience to break dispelief and harm their enjoyment of a roleplaying game. And whether they're expensive or cheap, the immense fiddliness of D&D 4e minis combat is way turning me off. Back "in the day" we did D&D combat without any minis or a tactical map and it was very enjoyable - I find it ironic that anyone who's into all that would lecture anyone on the nature of "fantasy". [/QUOTE]

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