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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Werebat" data-source="post: 5290045" data-attributes="member: 40158">I know I'm mixing game systems here, but it's surely not an uncommon mix, so here goes...Spell Compendium has a spell called Ray of Dizziness that is a ranged touch attack with no save.  The staggered condition didn't exist in 3.5 but Ray of Dizziness produced effects identical to the staggered condition.One of the reasons some players loved RoD (when they were the ones using it) is that it was a save-or-suck spell that didn't allow a saving throw (presumably on the pretext that the ranged touch attack "could" miss its target).  Thus it was considered a grand spell to use on easy-to-touch big bads like dragons.Also, since it didn't technically inflict an "condition" on its target, there was no real way to get rid of it other than waiting the spell out.  Heal didn't remove it because it wasn't a condition.  Any other spell with a list of conditions that it removed didn't do so either because it wasn't on that list.Pathfinder does have the staggered condition and it a player wanted to use RoD in a pathfinder game where SC was allowed, it would seem reasonable to say that it inflicted the staggered condition on those affected by it.  However, a quick look through the books reveals that while PF created the staggered condition it didn't seem to acknowledge it anywhere.  Thus, no creature types are immune to being staggered (not even undead or constructs).  Spells that remove lists of conditions don't seem to mention the staggered condition.  Therefore, making RoD inflict the staggered condition in PF doesn't seem to alter the spell's powergaming juiciness much, which is irritating for this DM who thinks the spell is a bit OP.Any suggestions?  Am I missing something?  What creature types should be immune to staggering?  What spells should remove the condition?  Are there any other ranged touch attack spells in PF with the same "you-get-no-save-and-you-suck" mechanism, and how do they work?  I'm thinking a save every round might be appropriate, but what kind?Or maybe RoD allows a caster to make a ranged touch attack every round for the spell duration, which staggers its target for a round if it hits????</blockquote>

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