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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Crust" data-source="post: 4464552" data-attributes="member: 22330">Thanks for the replies.  Let me take some time to reply as best as I can.  I know I'm typing a lot here.  Please bear with me:Given the right circumstances, "slaying an evil foe" is justified, but in terms of the Exalted Deeds book, "murder" is never right.  The difference is clearly explained in the book.You, players, and I might have conflicting ideas about what's right and wrong, but the Exalted Deeds book ends all arguments, at least at my table.  I've decided to stand by the published material.In terms of the Exalted Deeds book, in particular the first couple chapters, this is simply not true.  It's clearly stated that torture is out of the question for a PC with exalted feats, spells, or a PrC let alone horrible torture and deliberate suffering.  Take a look.I see consistency in the text.  The only creatures that can be given no quarter are 99.9% of undead (there are good-aligned liches out there), evil outsiders, and in most cases chromatic dragons.  Even beholders, mind flayers, and drow elves have the potential for redemption.  In fact, a mind flayer is used as an example of a redeemed evil foe.  If such a foe throws down his/her/its weapons and/or submits in some clear way, an exalted PC must yield or lose his exalted benefits.  There are ways around killing when killing isn't necessary.  An exalted PC must understand this in order to make use of the spells, feats, ad PrCs in the book.I guess you had to be there.  The "will of Malar" angle was for storytelling purposes.  The fact that Kragg killed a foe who had yielded is evil, which is the real problem.  Malar's presence and desires were only a mechanism to convey the idea that the "powers" are watching.I see what you're trying to say, but I don't see the logic here.  There's nothing good or evil about gravity.  That aside, following the will of any evil deity, be it Bane, Cyric, Shar, or Malar is something an exalted character must avoid, but like I said, the real problem was not showing mercy.  I set up the scenario knowing full well that the player would give in to his Final Fantasy/video game RPG mentality of "killing equals XP."  It would have been better, as an exalted PC, to show mercy and attempt to redeem the lost soul rather than snuff out his life.  Such an act of mercy would certainly warrant XP and perhaps additional rewards, such as the redeemed NPC becoming an ally of the party or perhaps a member of the party.  Killing targets isn't the only way to earn XP.Sure, the player in question would rather take the chance to roll a natty 20 and own the weakling and marvel over the amount of damage he dealt, but that's not what is expected from an exalted PC.  It's right there in the book.Werewolfs aren't that difficult to restrain, really.  Further, "the ends justify the means," especially when the means--murdering a foe who has yielded and desires mercy--is wholly evil.  This is clearly explained in the Exalted Deeds book.I'm not trying to compare the situation to a real-world event.  I don't think the comparison is relevant, since in our world, there is no concrete, measurable evidence that "powers" are watching and governing our behavior or that good and evil exist in the person or in the action.  In the real world, that's a personal matter of faith and belief.  In D&D, good and evil are less abstract.  Spells like holy smite and blasphemy, creatures like demons and devas, and places like Baator and Mt. Celestial show that.Malar snatched the body and bounded away, so what happens with Reskyn's body is up to Malar.  Perhaps Reskyn will be resurrected and made even more powerful than he was in life and sent back to the Material to continue hunting Kragg.  Even if that were to happen, and Reskyn would once again ask for mercy, an exalted PC would have to give it.  No matter the long-term effects, murder is still murder, and murder is always evil (as is stated in the Exalted Deeds book).  Now, if Reskyn were to fight to the death, then Kragg would be justified in defending himself.  Killing would be his only choice, unless he would rather die himself.  Conan is not an exalted character, and therefore, the player in question should not be role-playing his PC as a Conan type.  I want him to adhere to the proper code of conduct as is laid down in the Exalted Deeds book.  It's not simply that I want the player to just do what I say simply because I said it.But when it comes down to it, as DM, I'm the one in control.  My players understand that.  In the sad event that one of my players can't abide by the code of conduct laid down in the book, then we have a problem.  I have faith that my players are mature enough to understand my true intent: to find fair balance.  The Exalted Deeds book allows for enormous power (like dealing 300-400+ damage to evil foes in one blow), and the balance comes with the code.  Not what I consider exalted.  What The Book of Exalted Deeds states is exalted.Well, that was never really an option, for the player to just become evil.  The player would never voluntarily do the will of Malar if he knew he was doing the will of Malar.  Either the player wasn't paying attention, wasn't listening, or just didn't care about my role-playing element, and just went ahead and rolled his d20 and committed an evil act when he should have shown mercy (as is explained in the Exalted Deeds book).  He was penalized, whatever the real reasons for his brash actions.  It's up to the player how he interprets events, and I've talked to him about this.  I've told him about the possibility that he is, on some level, an agent of Malar now, since he's bestial, he's a hunter, and he's committed an evil act.  That's a matter of interpretation that lends depth to the campaign, in the same way that some (including certain drow priestesses) might consider Drizzt do'Urden an agent of Lolth due to the chaos he sows in Menzoberranzan.The penalty is by no means permanent.  This is the time when he's learning what Selune and Kharash expect in terms of the Exalted Deeds book.  When Selune (and, of course, I) feel his PC is ready to walk the exalted path fully with clear understanding, he'll be back to normal, able to shift into humanoid form.  I'm also going to offer him the option of becoming a full-blooded werewolf for successful atonement.Right.  This is the place we're at now.  We're playing tomorrow, and I'm handing out printouts of the first couple chapters of the Exalted Deeds book so there's no confusion.  My players can argue with me for days about what is and what isn't evil.  They're not going to be able to argue with the printouts.Starbuck,My reference to Baldur's Gate (or Final Fantasy or Neverwinter Nights or Dragon Warrior or Oblivion, etc.) suggests that some of my players don't consider alignment (or the fact that they have exalted feats and classes) when taking actions, just like they don't consider alignment or conduct when building a PC in a computer game unless it's a prerequisite for a feat, class, or PrC.  Some of my players just want to do whatever they want, and every encounter must end with kills.  For exalted PCs, that's unacceptable.Take Grand Theft Auto for example.  Do you obey traffic laws and conduct yourself as a good citizen, or do you freely run down pedestrians, shoot innocent people, and use the cheat codes to wipe away your wanted level?  Does it matter?  There are no real consequences in the video game.  However, an exalted PC must abide by the code of conduct outlined in the text.The slayer of Domiel might have the death attack class skill, but that does not mean that the slayer of Domiel can just go around attacking and killing evil creatures on sight.  That goes against everything that is laid down in The Book of Exalted Deeds.  That mentality is what I call the Baldur's Gate/Final Fantasy/Neverwinter Nights/(insert video game RPG here) mentality, where class skills, feats, and spells can be used in any manner in order to get more XP and treasure.</blockquote>

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