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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Stalker0" data-source="post: 4277873" data-attributes="member: 5889">It is my belief the current skill challenge system doesn't work properly, and so I have done an extensive rework of the system, using a large amount of calculations and mathematical models. The system is presented below, and in the next post I will write down a detailed account of each part of the system and explain how and why it came out as it does.First, some ground rules:1) If you don't believe the current system is broken, then please do not mention it in this thread, as this thread is for those who do believe it.2) This thread is to discuss my system, not for you to talk about yours. If you would like to post your own system, I would be happy to take a look and comment in your own thread. But please keep comments focused on what is presented here.And without further ado, my system. Assume that any thing I don't mention here is unchanged from the standard skill challenge system.GOAL: A standard party taking on a challenge equal to their level, where each of the players gets to utilize one of their best skills, should have around an 80% chance of success in accomplishing the challenge.The skill DC and Complexity tables are the heart of the new system, carefully crafted to provide balanced skill challenges for a party. Note that for most parties, there are only 3 levels of complexity. Complexity 4 and 5 are NOT designed with normal parties in mind.[CODE][B]Skill DC Table (For Skill Challenges Only)[/B]Level    Easy    Med    Hard1-3    14    17    214-6    15    18    237-9    17    20    2610-12    19    22    2813-15    22    24    3016-18    23    26    3319-21    25    28    3422-24    27    30    3725-27    29    32    3928-30    31    34    42[/CODE][CODE][B]Complexity Table[/b]Comp. Success Failure1    3    32    5    43    7    54*    9    65*    11    7[/CODE]*These complexities are only designed for parties that have 1 really strong skill user, not for general parties. The increased number of rolls prevents the one player from overshadowing everyone in the skill challenge while still providing a strong benefit.Allowed Skills:  When a DM sets up a skill challenge, he can choose a number of skills that the players may use for the challenge. These are known as “allowed skills”. He may also allow the players to choose their own skills, provided they can provide a good reason for their use.Non-allowed Skills: A player may wish to use a skill that the DM has decided not to allow for the challenge. If the DM wishes, he can allow the player to use the skill, but only for the purpose of aiding another, and with a hard instead of easy DC (see below).NOTE: This is a change from the DMG, where the DM can allow a non-allowed skill in with a hard DC. This mechanic replaces that.Critical Success: Any skill check that rolls a natural 20 during a skill challenge automatically counts as a success. In addition, if that roll +modifier would make the DC, you gain a critical success. You can use your critical successes to use the skillful recovery mechanic (see below).Aid Another (EASY):  Instead of rolling a regular skill check, one character in the party per round can choose to aid another. When choosing to aid another, your skill check does not count as a success or failure for the challenge. Instead, a success provides a +2 bonus to the next person’s roll. Once you successfully use aid another, you can only aid again if you use a different skill. You can score critical successes on aid another rolls. Note that aid another rolls with non-allowed skills have a Hard difficulty.NOTE: This replaces the aid another mechanic present in the DMG when it comes to skill challenges.Skillful Recovery (HARD): You can choose to use skillful recovery as an immediate interrupt whenever you or one of your party members fails a skill check. Make a skill check, using one of the allowed skills for the challenge. If you fail, then the original failure stands. If you succeed, you negate the failure. That skill check neither counts as a failure or a success. You can use skillful recovery a number of times equal to the number of critical successes you have obtained through the challenge. You cannot gain a critical success on a skillful recovery roll.Ex: In a negotiation with the duke, the fighter makes a comment that angers the duke. The charismatic rogue uses a hard diplomacy check and makes a comment about the duke’s dining hall. The duke, already impressed with the rogue from a previous comment he made (critical success) thanks him kindly, and forgets the fighter’s comment. Daredevil Stunt (Hard): True skill masters can choose to make hard checks in order to gain more critical successes. Choose any allowed skill that normally has an easy or medium difficulty. You can now gain a critical success if you roll an 18, 19, or 20. However, only a natural 20 is still an automatic success. A daredevil stunt still counts as a success or failure for the skill challenge.Ex. The party is climbing a steep cliff. The fighter, with his massive strength, training, and skill focus in athletics, has no trouble climbing the wall. He decides to use a daredevil stunt to climb the wall in half the time. He rolls an 18 and gets a critical success. He can now watch his fellow party members, and offer aid if they have trouble using skillful recovery.General Questions: I’m going to try an answer a few questions I can see popping up with this system.1)    I’m running a party of 4, and one of the guys is a skill monkey!! He has everything in bluff, and he simply bluffs his way through everything. How can I handle him with your system?First of all, is it really a problem? Afterall, if the guy has thrown a lot of resources into being a skill guy, then there’s no problem with him reaping the benefits. However, if you still feel it’s a problem, you may consider reducing skill items in your game. Magic items that add +4 or +6 to a skill can actually have a very large impact on the math of a skill challenge. Or, use the special complexity 4 or 5 I added in my table. This will reduce that one person’s impact on the skill challenge without greatly increasing the difficulty of the challenge overall.2)    I’ve looked at your skill DC table, and it’s a bit more complicated than the standard one. In general I don’t like tables that much. Are those exact DCs really that important?The short answer is…often yes. The skill challenge system is intuitive and useful, but it has a problem with wide variance that can’t really be fixed without a drastic change to the math, which few people would like. My updated system curbs a good deal of it, but it still exists. Even a change of +1 can have a decent impact on your party’s chance to win a skill challenge. Whenever building a skill challenge, take half a minute and right down the proper DCs for your party. While as the DM you ultimately know your party far better than I do, these numbers will give you a solid win rate with an average party.3)    Hey I like this system and I would like to make it better. What can I do to help?The biggest thing people can do to help is to provide me live data from their games. First and foremost, what kind of skill challenges is your party experiencing? What skills are being used? What are the skill modifiers players have as they increase in level? Right now my model is all theoretical, and it won’t be complete until I see it used with actual characters in actual games.4)    No offense, but how can you know the system is broken? After all, the game has barely been out yet. How can you be so sure the system doesn’t work?While I obviously love to do theoretical models, I greatly believe in real experience being the final word. So why not this time? The reason is while math can’t tell you everything it can give you a good indicator, and in this case the math is blatantly saying the system is broken. Here’s a quick and powerful example. Take a team of 5 1st level characters through a complexity 5, level 1 skill challenge. Allow them each a +9 to their best skill (+4 mod + skill training) and allow them to use those best skills throughout the challenge. The party’s win rate? 7%.Now if that win rate was around 50%, I’d still question it, but I would certainly run the system through its paces before making any final judgments. But it’s not even close, its 7%!! That’s just not acceptable, so a replacement system is needed.If you would like to look at the math for yourself, go to this thread: <a href="http://www.enworld.org/showthread.p...779#post4278779" target="_blank">http://www.enworld.org/showthread.p...779#post4278779</a>5)    My group also thinks the skill challenge system is broken, but we don’t like a lot of houserules. Is it possible to use only some of your system, like the skill table for example?If you would like to take only a part of the system, then take the Skill DC Table and the Complexity Table. With those two, your well on your way to a balanced skill challenge system. The other parts of the system help to tighten the numbers up, so without them you might notice a large difference between a complexity 1 and a complexity 3. However, you could run it with just those two parts.6)    I was looking at your skill table. Should I use this for all skill checks, or just skill challenges?My table is specially designed to handle skill challenges. When dealing with regular skill checks, use the Tables provided in the DMG.</blockquote>

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