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<blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 7565314" data-attributes="member: 4937">While I agree that this is true, it's also true that the reason fighters are tier 4 is that they aren't even very good at dealing out damage in combat, and there are critics of 3.X who have pointed out that the most powerful melee combatants of basically any level are not fighters.&nbsp; Indeed, I've seen arguments that a 3rd level wizard can out perform a fighter even in melee combat.So while that is true, the bigger problem is that the writer's of 3.X treated almost all spells as reliable means of player agency which could be spent to reliably alter the narrative or the fictional positioning during play, but conservatively treated everything that wasn't a spell as a highly unreliable and very limited means of player agency.&nbsp; Mere skill isn't allowed to compete with magical ability and heroic uses of ability are mere child's play for a spell - compare for example the RAW of 'spider climb' to the climb skill, or the 'jump' spell to the jump skill, or 'hide' to the invisibility spell.&nbsp;&nbsp; These are all low level spells that grant epic levels of ability in a skill.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Celebrim, post: 7565314, member: 4937"] While I agree that this is true, it's also true that the reason fighters are tier 4 is that they aren't even very good at dealing out damage in combat, and there are critics of 3.X who have pointed out that the most powerful melee combatants of basically any level are not fighters. Indeed, I've seen arguments that a 3rd level wizard can out perform a fighter even in melee combat. So while that is true, the bigger problem is that the writer's of 3.X treated almost all spells as reliable means of player agency which could be spent to reliably alter the narrative or the fictional positioning during play, but conservatively treated everything that wasn't a spell as a highly unreliable and very limited means of player agency. Mere skill isn't allowed to compete with magical ability and heroic uses of ability are mere child's play for a spell - compare for example the RAW of 'spider climb' to the climb skill, or the 'jump' spell to the jump skill, or 'hide' to the invisibility spell. These are all low level spells that grant epic levels of ability in a skill. [/QUOTE]

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