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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7288711" data-attributes="member: 12731">No they didn't. You're relativizing to an insane degree. How far are you really prepared to go to defend WotC?!I bet you never accused the 3e designers of only designing for minmax combat monsters. Yet you are, trying to paint their incredibly weak attempt as anything other than the big disappointment it is.Why don't you simply agree that &quot;demons are a joke&quot;, that dragons can't fulfil their expected role, and that high-level monsters simply are under-equipped in an edition where PCs come with more goodies ever right out the PHB. This last thing is important.Yes, I know d20 eventually broke. But 5e comes broken right out the gate. You don't need splatbooks or even magic items (apart from your generic +1 weapon) to roflstomp over most CR 10+ MM critters. This is a serious defiency with 5th edition. Note I'm not talking low level now. I am fully aware low complexity helps 5E's success with new gamers. But why throw out the baby with the bathwater = why treat level 15 play as if it were just level 5 play with more hp?!?No, it doesn't stop me from unhesitatingly lauding 5th edition as the best edition yet.&nbsp; It is. But why can't you allow yourself to see the obvious warts. I can. I still love 5E. I just chose not to pretend its very real issues don't exist.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7288711, member: 12731"] No they didn't. You're relativizing to an insane degree. How far are you really prepared to go to defend WotC?! I bet you never accused the 3e designers of only designing for minmax combat monsters. Yet you are, trying to paint their incredibly weak attempt as anything other than the big disappointment it is. Why don't you simply agree that "demons are a joke", that dragons can't fulfil their expected role, and that high-level monsters simply are under-equipped in an edition where PCs come with more goodies ever [I]right out the PHB[/I]. This last thing is important. Yes, I know d20 eventually broke. But 5e comes broken [I]right out the gate[/I]. You don't need splatbooks or even magic items (apart from your generic +1 weapon) to roflstomp over most CR 10+ MM critters. This is a serious defiency with 5th edition. [SIZE=1]Note I'm not talking low level now. I am fully aware low complexity helps 5E's success with new gamers. But why throw out the baby with the bathwater = why treat level 15 play as if it were just level 5 play with more hp?!?[/SIZE] No, it doesn't stop me from unhesitatingly lauding 5th edition as the best edition yet. [B]It is.[/B] But why can't you allow yourself to see the obvious warts. I can. I still love 5E. I just chose not to pretend its very real issues don't exist. [/QUOTE]

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