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Star Wars Geekdom 101 -Explaining The Empire
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<blockquote data-quote="Zardnaar" data-source="post: 7490766" data-attributes="member: 6716779"><p>Since the early days of the old legends EU the star wars fans have debated how a rag tag bunch of rebels managed to defeat the Empire. Even in the Return of the Jedi with the destruction of the Death Star and the super star destroyer Executor (Vaders flagship). Other debates revolve around why diod the Empire make crap fighters like the TIE fighter and Imperial Star Destroyers with so many flaws. </p><p></p><p> In the old legends continuity the Empire survived but it took another 15 years to defeat, while in the new cannon there was another battle at Jakku around a year after Endor where the Empire formally surrendered. Put simply people can't seem to comprehend how the powerful empire was defeated due to how big the imperial fleet was espciaically in the new cannon where the rebel fleet as seen at Endor is basically all of it at least with the large Mon Calamari star cruisers. Most of the things that caused the Empire to fall however have comparisons IRL.</p><p></p><p>1. Political Succession.</p><p> In all the Star Wars media the Emperor did not plan on having a political successor. In the old legends he planned to live forever while in the new one in the event of his fall Operation Cinder was going to burn the galaxy down. IRL real empires have fallen sometimes very fast when the leader has died. For example Alexander the Greats empire or the various Mongol empires or even Charlemagne empire. You need a clear and stable succession and the Empire lacked that.</p><p></p><p>2. The Empire was spread thin.</p><p> In the old legends the Imperial fleet had 25000 star destroyers (the rebels 6-20 Mon Cals), plus countless TIE fighters and smaller ships. However the Empire has around 1-1.5 million worlds + 50+ million colonies. Not all of the worlds require a military presence but that is 1 Star Destroyer for every 40-60 odd major worlds and things like Cloud City are a colony. The Empire massed 30 odd Star Destroyers at Endor which is roughly a sector fleet that means over 1000 worlds did not have ISDs that could be used to suppress them. This leads to.</p><p></p><p>3. The TIE fighter. In the movies TIE fighters are basically fodder and in most games and RPGs they are also fodder. They are outclassed by the old clone Wars vintage ARC 170's and the new X-Wings. The empire is rich why did they build a crap fighter? A real life example is the Japanese Zero which was designed to be very light due to a lack of resources. See the previous point about the Empire being spread thin. The Empire did design better fighters (TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced in the movies, TIE Avenger+ Defender+ others in Rebels and the old EU). However you an have 5 TIEs for every TIE defender or you can have 3 of them for every 2 TIE interceptors. They were already spread thin and producing TIE Defenders instead means 80% less TIEs which could mean somewhere between 40-80% less systems. Additionally after the clone wars who was left to fight? The rebels were small later on and if the TIE fighter was a Zero the X-Wing was a Mustang or F4 Corsair.</p><p></p><p>4. The Imperial Star Destroyer (ISD I and ISD II)</p><p> The ISDs have a lot of firepower but they also have a few design flaws such as the underside of the ship, a lack of point defence (AA guns), and exposed bridge and shield generators. In the old EU they were known for having lots of mechanical flaws as well. They were also quite tough and as I said they have a lot of firepower. This doesn't mean the empire was stupid however, consider the clone wars. The ISD is designed for the Star Wars equivalent of Jutland while the Rebels are the Star Wars equivalent of the Viet Cong. For much of the same reasons the US toys like the Abrams and F-35 would be fine in a conventional war those days are mostly past us IRL, while in Star Wars the empire designed its ships for fighting other capital ships and/or slagging and intimidating planets. And in the aftermath of the Clone Wars this was perfectly sensible. </p><p></p><p>5. Political Fragmentation.</p><p> In both the new canon and the old canon the Empire fragments. This would be comparable to the collapse of the Soviet Union which lost 80% of its MiG 29's either to the new countries due to the fragmentation or due to things like a lack of money to maintain what they had. The USSR had no wars comparable to the Star Wars universe in the 19809's/90's but the Empire in the old legends did suffer form mass desertion, fleets going rogue (the warlords) and mass surrenders and defections to the New Republic. </p><p></p><p>6. Economics. To fund the imperial build up taxes and exploitation were heavy in the Empire falling especially hard on the Outer Rim world. With the defeat at Endor a lot of worlds rose up in revolt or were otherwise unavailable to the remaining Imperial authorities. The old legends touched briefly on this as things like new ships, TIEs and recruits became very scarce and even the Warlords were mostly using up the imperial arsenal or plundering worlds to build a few new ships. Some SSD were actually mothballed due to this (lack of crews) while other fleets more mostly used on the defensive perhaps due to a lack of fuel if they used up what they had on offensive operations. By the Thrawn Trilogy even his core fleets ISDs did not all have a full load of TIEs. </p><p></p><p> So what should the Empire have done? Its easy to criticise being but alot of the decisions the Empire made were actually rational, they just guessed wrong in terms of what they would have to face and to much power was tied up in the Emperor and Vader. Even IRL nations have duplicated the decisions that in universe the empire made. For example the imperial ships were more like Zeros and British capital ships while the Rebel ships were more like US and Imperial German ships. Also see the British battlecruiser theory- speed, firepower, armor what do you focus on? Well the Empire should probably have built less ISDs and replacing them with smaller ships and not build Super Star Destroyers and the Death Stars at all. They did have some excellent ship designs such as the Lancer frigate (AA screen), and the strike cruiser (fast heavy cruiser equivalent), and the Victory Star Destroyer II. A lot of those ships could have done the same job and done it cheaper. For example for the same price you can have 3 Victory Star Destroyers with less than half the crew of an ISD, or you can build around 6 strike cruisers with half the crew requirements of an ISD. Some of the smaller imperial ships also have a faster hyperdrive than the ISD's which would lend themselves to an emergency fire fighting mobile reserve.</p><p></p><p> Realistically you would also need to build the same number of TIE fighters, but you do keep a few higher priced models around, maybe not TIE defenders (which are F-35/F-22 equivalents read expensive) but things like shield equipped TIE interceptors (Thrawns innovation), and cheaper TIE Avengers and TIE Advanced can match an X-Wing. Even if they did not have a hyperdrive you could put them on smaller ships like the Strike Cruisers and Victories and respond to rebel strikes much quicker and 2-3 Victories are just as good as an ISD for terrorising a planet. The smaller ships are cheaper and if you don't build the dozen or so SSD they did build let alone the Death Stars the cheaper smaller ships+better TIEs do become affordable. You also free up a lot of crews using the smaller ships. You actually don't need the ISDs at all but that is using hindsight and they were developed and were going to be built regardless I would just scale their production back a bit but even then if you tuck with them by not building the Death Stars and SSD class you would have enough resources left over to fix the Imperial Navy vs any potential foe including unconventional warfare.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Zardnaar, post: 7490766, member: 6716779"] Since the early days of the old legends EU the star wars fans have debated how a rag tag bunch of rebels managed to defeat the Empire. Even in the Return of the Jedi with the destruction of the Death Star and the super star destroyer Executor (Vaders flagship). Other debates revolve around why diod the Empire make crap fighters like the TIE fighter and Imperial Star Destroyers with so many flaws. In the old legends continuity the Empire survived but it took another 15 years to defeat, while in the new cannon there was another battle at Jakku around a year after Endor where the Empire formally surrendered. Put simply people can't seem to comprehend how the powerful empire was defeated due to how big the imperial fleet was espciaically in the new cannon where the rebel fleet as seen at Endor is basically all of it at least with the large Mon Calamari star cruisers. Most of the things that caused the Empire to fall however have comparisons IRL. 1. Political Succession. In all the Star Wars media the Emperor did not plan on having a political successor. In the old legends he planned to live forever while in the new one in the event of his fall Operation Cinder was going to burn the galaxy down. IRL real empires have fallen sometimes very fast when the leader has died. For example Alexander the Greats empire or the various Mongol empires or even Charlemagne empire. You need a clear and stable succession and the Empire lacked that. 2. The Empire was spread thin. In the old legends the Imperial fleet had 25000 star destroyers (the rebels 6-20 Mon Cals), plus countless TIE fighters and smaller ships. However the Empire has around 1-1.5 million worlds + 50+ million colonies. Not all of the worlds require a military presence but that is 1 Star Destroyer for every 40-60 odd major worlds and things like Cloud City are a colony. The Empire massed 30 odd Star Destroyers at Endor which is roughly a sector fleet that means over 1000 worlds did not have ISDs that could be used to suppress them. This leads to. 3. The TIE fighter. In the movies TIE fighters are basically fodder and in most games and RPGs they are also fodder. They are outclassed by the old clone Wars vintage ARC 170's and the new X-Wings. The empire is rich why did they build a crap fighter? A real life example is the Japanese Zero which was designed to be very light due to a lack of resources. See the previous point about the Empire being spread thin. The Empire did design better fighters (TIE Interceptor, TIE Advanced in the movies, TIE Avenger+ Defender+ others in Rebels and the old EU). However you an have 5 TIEs for every TIE defender or you can have 3 of them for every 2 TIE interceptors. They were already spread thin and producing TIE Defenders instead means 80% less TIEs which could mean somewhere between 40-80% less systems. Additionally after the clone wars who was left to fight? The rebels were small later on and if the TIE fighter was a Zero the X-Wing was a Mustang or F4 Corsair. 4. The Imperial Star Destroyer (ISD I and ISD II) The ISDs have a lot of firepower but they also have a few design flaws such as the underside of the ship, a lack of point defence (AA guns), and exposed bridge and shield generators. In the old EU they were known for having lots of mechanical flaws as well. They were also quite tough and as I said they have a lot of firepower. This doesn't mean the empire was stupid however, consider the clone wars. The ISD is designed for the Star Wars equivalent of Jutland while the Rebels are the Star Wars equivalent of the Viet Cong. For much of the same reasons the US toys like the Abrams and F-35 would be fine in a conventional war those days are mostly past us IRL, while in Star Wars the empire designed its ships for fighting other capital ships and/or slagging and intimidating planets. And in the aftermath of the Clone Wars this was perfectly sensible. 5. Political Fragmentation. In both the new canon and the old canon the Empire fragments. This would be comparable to the collapse of the Soviet Union which lost 80% of its MiG 29's either to the new countries due to the fragmentation or due to things like a lack of money to maintain what they had. The USSR had no wars comparable to the Star Wars universe in the 19809's/90's but the Empire in the old legends did suffer form mass desertion, fleets going rogue (the warlords) and mass surrenders and defections to the New Republic. 6. Economics. To fund the imperial build up taxes and exploitation were heavy in the Empire falling especially hard on the Outer Rim world. With the defeat at Endor a lot of worlds rose up in revolt or were otherwise unavailable to the remaining Imperial authorities. The old legends touched briefly on this as things like new ships, TIEs and recruits became very scarce and even the Warlords were mostly using up the imperial arsenal or plundering worlds to build a few new ships. Some SSD were actually mothballed due to this (lack of crews) while other fleets more mostly used on the defensive perhaps due to a lack of fuel if they used up what they had on offensive operations. By the Thrawn Trilogy even his core fleets ISDs did not all have a full load of TIEs. So what should the Empire have done? Its easy to criticise being but alot of the decisions the Empire made were actually rational, they just guessed wrong in terms of what they would have to face and to much power was tied up in the Emperor and Vader. Even IRL nations have duplicated the decisions that in universe the empire made. For example the imperial ships were more like Zeros and British capital ships while the Rebel ships were more like US and Imperial German ships. Also see the British battlecruiser theory- speed, firepower, armor what do you focus on? Well the Empire should probably have built less ISDs and replacing them with smaller ships and not build Super Star Destroyers and the Death Stars at all. They did have some excellent ship designs such as the Lancer frigate (AA screen), and the strike cruiser (fast heavy cruiser equivalent), and the Victory Star Destroyer II. A lot of those ships could have done the same job and done it cheaper. For example for the same price you can have 3 Victory Star Destroyers with less than half the crew of an ISD, or you can build around 6 strike cruisers with half the crew requirements of an ISD. Some of the smaller imperial ships also have a faster hyperdrive than the ISD's which would lend themselves to an emergency fire fighting mobile reserve. Realistically you would also need to build the same number of TIE fighters, but you do keep a few higher priced models around, maybe not TIE defenders (which are F-35/F-22 equivalents read expensive) but things like shield equipped TIE interceptors (Thrawns innovation), and cheaper TIE Avengers and TIE Advanced can match an X-Wing. Even if they did not have a hyperdrive you could put them on smaller ships like the Strike Cruisers and Victories and respond to rebel strikes much quicker and 2-3 Victories are just as good as an ISD for terrorising a planet. The smaller ships are cheaper and if you don't build the dozen or so SSD they did build let alone the Death Stars the cheaper smaller ships+better TIEs do become affordable. You also free up a lot of crews using the smaller ships. You actually don't need the ISDs at all but that is using hindsight and they were developed and were going to be built regardless I would just scale their production back a bit but even then if you tuck with them by not building the Death Stars and SSD class you would have enough resources left over to fix the Imperial Navy vs any potential foe including unconventional warfare. [/QUOTE]
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