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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Desdichado" data-source="post: 3445437" data-attributes="member: 2205">On the contrary, your example about wizards completely does not work with your stated intent.For that matter, neither does the hit point concept.  What exactly do you do better that gives you more hit points, for example?For that matter, so does the concept of XP as a product of overcoming challenges and (most of the time) killing monsters.  Why don't you get better with practice, training or education?  Why don't administrators go up in level for doing their job day in and day out, for example?  And if they do, why does their BAB, Saving Throws and hit points go up?No, I honestly can't see any defense of leveling but with discrete spending on skill points making any logical sense.  The logical gap is about levels in the first place, and you either accept that as a game construct that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but does certain things from a mechanics standpoint, or you don't.  If you do, I can't see how getting better at skill checks that you haven't spent ranks in is any more nonsensical than anything else that's part and parcel of leveling, and from the point of view that leveling is a game construct rather than a modeling of "reality", then it actually makes much more sense the way the Saga edition will be doing it rather than the way d20 games to date have done.</blockquote>