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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ruin Explorer" data-source="post: 9441367" data-attributes="member: 18">Don't they? Maybe they individually don't, though both are needlessly curmudgeonly imho, keep secrets they probably shouldn't, and give advice that whilst arguably reasonable, isn't ultimately great advice. And the movies do give us reason to tarnish the Order, somewhat. What we learned in the OT is that:A) The Jedi failed and got wiped out. They had essentially one job (stop the Sith), and they didn't do it.B) The main villain until RotJ was trained as a Jedi. As of the OT it's unclear why he turned to the dark side, but people are going to assume there was a reason, not mere whimsy.As such, even in the pre-PT EU novels, the old Jedi order didn't tend to be presented as a wholly positive, and I would argue that that was because the sort of people who loved SW enough to write books about it tended to detect that was something kinda fishy about the Jedi. Vader's fall is definitely part of that.And Lucas then absolutely confirmed that with the PT.</blockquote>