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Message: <blockquote data-quote="HeavyG" data-source="post: 1085606" data-attributes="member: 431">Re: Re: Re: Re: starting gold, and how it's messed up.Wait a minute, I'm just laying the basework to my argument by this time.I agree, but is this explained anywhere ?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" />It depends.  If "The Kingdom" is one of the EL whatever  encounters your PCs use to gain a level, by the rules, it should be. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />Okay, by that point, I'm starting to think you missed the whole point of my post.I see no problem with the concept except insofar as it affects expected treasure by level and nobody seems to have taken that into account.WTF ?  That is pretty much how I do it when I run a campaign.  Well, I have a slightly more accurate way, but mostly...Please tell me where I said that was how I did things ?!?  I never said anything of the sort, I was explaining why "treasure by level" as explained in the books, is screwed up.  [OCG]You assume too much, grasshopper.[/Old Chinese Guy]Here we go. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f644.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":rolleyes:" title="Roll eyes    :rolleyes:"  data-smilie="11"data-shortname=":rolleyes:" />Okay, I will explain the point of my post, spell it out very clearly so there is no misunderstanding.My point is not that about what any single DM (good or bad, bastard or otherwise) will do.  It's about what the books tell you, and thus what a new DM will be doing, I guess.  Of course, an experienced DM will compensate for this.I always had way more magical items in 2E.  Different strokes I guess. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Completely irrelevant to what is written in the books, although...In 3.0, you should start carrying a scroll of greater magic weapon (caster level 9) ASAP, IMX. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":p" title="Stick out tongue    :p"  data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":p" />lolFight the power !Not me, the rules.  You see to be confused those two. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />By the way, you seem to really like saying that.  Since I do not endorse that particular rule, I am not offended, but if I was, it would be pretty insulting.  Why are you trying to insult me ?Okay, I already said I agree with that so, good call ! <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f600.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":D" title="Big grin    :D"  data-smilie="8"data-shortname=":D" />That was not in the rulebook, by the way, but my extrapolation of the logic contained in the rulebook.  Which I (and you apparently), disagree with.  It will be reexplained in simpler terms at the end of this post, don't worry.I would say that you are not obligated to do squat, but it would be pretty nice of you.  I'd probably do this, but that wouldn't be automatic.  What about the cash spent to raise dead ?  What about a PC that puts most of his treasure earned into scrolls and uses them every game ?Reiteration GOOD !  [/Frankenstein's monster]You seem to think I'm against people selling what they find to buy personalized stuff and I really wonder where you got that impression from. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f615.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":confused:" title="Confused    :confused:"  data-smilie="5"data-shortname=":confused:" />Or, you'd have to follow the rules. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Now, where did that come from ?Okay, since it's painfully obvious that my argument was too complicated, I will reiterate in a simpler way.Here is what the rules tell us :1) At each level, there is an expected value of gear a PC needs to be balanced. (DMG p.135)2) On average, going through enough encounters to raise a level should give you randomly generated items worth the difference needed to follow that expected value of gear. (DMG Sidebar p. 54)Those are the rules.  I realize you can break them, but that is not what this is about.If you take both of those together, the implication is that a character at level X should have accumulated Y amount of randomly generated treasure.3) The rulebooks tell you that you can sell magical items you don't want for half price and buy more appropriate ones with that cash.I'm sorry, I don't have a page number on that one.  Anyway, assuming that it's true, we can only assume that a random magical item is balanced with a chosen magical item of half it's price, by the rules.  I would agree with that.Thus, by the logic contained in the core books, a character, by level X, should have accumulated Y amount of loot, sold most of it, and bought some better items with the cash, thus having somewhere between 0.5 Y and 1 Y in equipment gold value.However, the "Creating PCs above 1st level" page says that level X PCs should have Y amount of picked items.  Thus, we have the following two positions :a) At level X, you should have Y amount of randomly picked stuff.  Some or most of that should be sold for half price to get more appropriate stuff.b) At level X, you should have Y amount of stuff you chose.  Presumably, you found way more treasure than that in your adventuring career, but you sold some to buy that.The "adventuring" rules bring you to conclusion a), while the "creating PCs above 1st level" rules bring you to conclusion b).  Hence, there is an anomaly in the rules.  Thus, either the "starting gold" rule is too generous, or the "treasure per encounter" rule is too cheap.  Presumably, the "treasure per encounter" rule is the right one because it's not in an "optional rules" chapter and it's in a sidebar named "Behind the curtain : Treasure values".  Thus my conclusion that starting character should get less gold value since they pick their gear.However, my personal opinion, which coincides with yours, apparently, is that PCs should have the full amount of equipment in gear they have mostly chosen.Your point seems to be that the rules are whacked and cheap, thus a good DM has to adjust his campaign accordingly, and that WotC published adventures are too.  I agree with that, it's been my point all along.  It really should be in the books, though, because new DMs are going to be really puzzled as to why their players always seem to have less equipment than they should have, even though they follow the rules to the letter.</blockquote>

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