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Message: <blockquote data-quote="IndyPendant" data-source="post: 2699611" data-attributes="member: 8738">This...is actually a good point.  I chimed in with an anti-pointbuy post, without actually offering what I do (and have done) myself for chargen--and that didn't address the OP's question.  Sorry about that.  I'll get to describing one thing I've done--that didn't work very well--at the end of this post.One quibble tho: "the fact that it stays with you for your career" is a very big deal.  As Stream pointed out--no other die roll affects your char so completely and permanently.  Even hitpoints average out over time (in theory).  This should not be so blithely tossed out and then dismissed out of hand.The problem here is that everyone's idea of 'unplayable' is different.  That is a lot of what I meant when I said the player that can wheedle the best is often favoured by random statgen.In rereading the post I made, I've realized it had a...highly antagonistic tone.  I honestly did not mean to state that players or GMs are evil for preferring random statgen.  I was very careful to word my post so that the attack was aimed at the *concept* of using random statgen, and not the players (if you reread the post, you'll clearly see that)--but failed to clearly state that fact out front.  Thus, the tone does not come over very well at all, and I apologize for that.To reiterate: I did not intend to attack the players for using random statgen.  Only the concept itself.  I have very strong opinions against random statgen, and will argue long and hard against it if/when it comes up in any game I'm involved in--but I won't think less of the GM/Players for using it.  It just would be a huge incentive for me to quit the game. : )See, my experience has been the opposite.  Given random statgen, the people who most seemed to enjoy their char--and make them the most memorable--are the ones where the weaknesses fit the concept already.  Unless you're talking about laughing at how the clumsy ranger failed his balance check and toppled from the bridge into the pit of lava or something (to pick an extreme example)--which is rather like kidding on the square.And I never said that people had to agree with me.  Again, my post was perhaps too strong, and could have been worded more clearly, but I stated right in the beginning that this was my opinion, and concluded by stating that I would never GM a random statgen game and probably not PC in it.  Never did I actually state that everyone should do as I say.  (This is a common difficulty people face in a debate: the perception that an attack on the *idea* is a demand to conform.  Mine was not.  It was just an--admittedly strong--description of my own thoughts on random statgen.)Actually, this is incorrect.  As you directly quoted in your own post, I was only countering the idea that similar stats result in cookie-cutter chars.  I never stated stats were unimportant.  They are very important.  But whereas in previous editions stats were one of the biggest things that differentiated two chars, that is simply no longer true since 3e.  So the cookie-cutter threat is a weak justification for random statgen.I believe Li Shenron has it right, when he says that random statgen is popular primarily because that's the way it's always been done.  However, just like the QWERTY keyboard layout is *terrible*, yet we're stuck with it simply because that's what we're used to, random statgen isn't good simply because it's always been used.  On the other hand, random statgen is also a lot easier to get rid of...: )Now, to (finally!) respond to the OP's request: I have actually GM'd a straight 1-for-1 80-point statgen method.  (Where the chars could have 18, 18, 14, 12, 10, 8 for example.)  I'd have to say it didn't work too well.  It contributed to chars that were a bit too powerful.  Not enough checks for the balance.  80/1-for-1 isn't quite the same as standard point-buy, because there aren't the increasing costs for higher stats.  Imo, the best chargen method I've yet seen is the usual pointbuy, with a 28-36 range, depending on how (un)heroic you want them to be.But then, I tend to be a rather lenient GM when it comes to stats for chargen.  I give players 3-5 full sessions where they have pretty much complete freedom to redesign anything about their char they don't like, before locking them down.  The way I look at it: barring permadeath, ideally they'll be 'stuck' with that char for years.  So give the players a little time and freedom to tweak their chars until they are just right for the player.But...*shrug*.  Your game, your rules.</blockquote>

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