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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1249415" data-attributes="member: 3146">That has not been my experience at all. Mechanically well-constructed characters will inevitably be somewhat similar whether point buy or rolling is used. Quick check: you roll str 7, dex 13, con 15, int 17, wis 9, cha 10; what class do you play? If you picked wizard, you get the cookie. Now, you roll a high strength and charisma with a decent wisdom. Naturally, you gravitate towards paladin. Etc. I haven't seen this phenomenon differ too much between point buy and die rolling char-gen games. The difference is whether the player gets the stats first and then chooses the class or chooses the class first and then chooses the stats. If that's what you mean by cookie cutter, then you're right but it's true of both stat-gen methods.If you mean that similar characters have similar stats, that's also true regardless of the char-gen method. For instance, you're a stealthy arcane archer--what are your stats likely to be? Str=average to decent, Dex=good, Con=poor to decent, Int=usually decent, occasionally average, wis=average to poor, Charisma=average to poor (occasionally decent if a sorceror based Arcane Archer). You're an elf or half elf. You're probably a fighter/ranger/wizard but might have rogue levels or sorceror levels instead of ranger or wizard and might even eschew fighter levels altogether. There's a remote possibilty that you have barbarian and bard levels but it's not likely. If your stats were different, odds are you'd be a different character. If your classes were different, odds are you wouldn't be a stealthy arcane archer. Again, there will always be a certain degree of similarity between similar characters no matter what the char-gen method. That's why they're similar.I've seen all sorts of characters created through point buy (due to the complexity of 3e systems, "X point buy Class Y/Z" is not remotely sufficient to "know" the character. Even if people could agree on what maximum optimization for any particular concept is (and they can't), there are so many concepts (archer fighter vs tank fighter vs trip fighter vs reach fighter and conjurer vs evoker and melee cleric vs spellcasting cleric vs skillful cleric, etc) that there will always be many different varieties of members of each class at each point buy value. And people don't optimize their characters for the same thing. And people don't always optimize their characters to the same degree either).The assertion that class combinations requiring multiple good stats are not present in point buy environments, however, is truly absurd. The characters my main Living Greyhawk (a fairly typical point buy environment in my experience) character has played with most often are (in order):Bbn/Ftr/Rgr/Rog/Temple Raider/Holy Liberator (str, and dex primarily although the character would benefit from more wis and cha)Cleric (Str, Wis, Cha (although the character could use more con))Paladin (Str, Con, Wis, Cha)Rgr/Wiz/Arcane Archer/Deepwood Sniper (Str, Dex, Int)Clr (Wis, Con (the char could use more cha)Rog/Bard (Dex, Int, Cha)Clr (archer--dex, wis, str)Wiz (Int)Monk (Str, Dex, Con, Wis)Wiz (Int)Ranger (archer--dex, wis, str)Bbn/Rog (str, dex, con, int)Rog (Dex)Clr (Str, Con, Wis)Ftr/Clr (Str, dex, con, wis)Wiz (Dex, Int)There are 11 base classes. Out of these characters (all of those, my character has travelled with for 4+ adventures) three are core classes that require multiple ability scores (Pal, Mnk, Brd). Another 2 are multiclassed characters who need multiple ability scores. Out of sixteen characters, that's almost as good as one would do simply assigning equal numbers of each core class. (And, let's face it, of the core classes, Paladins and Bards will both be underrepresented in typical gaming experiences because Paladins are a more specific role-playing concept than most character classes and bards have a reputation for underpowered uselessness).I've never seen that happen except a couple of times when characters were killed in the first few minutes of a gaming session and in the first round of the first combat of the characters' existence. (Bad luck in one case, lvl 1 character vs. Ettin in the other). If you get a bunch of clones, that's a problem with your group and not with your char-gen method.</blockquote>

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